Pakistan Navy Frigates & Destroyers Information pool

[Tank131]

@Penguin would the smart-s mk2 solve this issue? I doubt that PN would be able to modify the Alamghir for an APAR type radar or CEAmount without US helpbut a SMART-S Mk2 could likely be done with only Thales support and gives medium range (250km) scanning and tracking. Would it even be worth it if PN goes for something like CAMM?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin would the smart-s mk2 solve this issue? I doubt that PN would be able to modify the Alamghir for an APAR type radar or CEAmount without US helpbut a SMART-S Mk2 could likely be done with only Thales support and gives medium range (250km) scanning and tracking. Would it even be worth it if PN goes for something like CAMM?

No. While it was used in the upgrade of the Turkish G-class, Smart-s mk2 is a surveillance/search radar and it cannot act as illuminator.

G-class

Same + Mk41 forward

And plus Smart-S mk2

Still only 2 illumination channels (CAS and STIR)

Same reason why US AEGIS ships have at least a pair of AN/SPG-62 besides AN/SPY-#.

You'ld need remount at least 1 STIR

or else something like this: the new mast on HMAS Perth with CeaFAR/CeaMount panels (and you could put Smart-S Mk2 on top, or retain the original AN/SPS-49 seen here).

As it was before modification

Or e.g. Thales I-Mast 500, with integrated APAR

Hence my suggestion: use a vls with a 'fire and forget' IIRH or ARH missile. Trading some missile range against the ability to deal with multi axis saturation attack is worthwhile.

CAMM / Sea Ceptor has a minimum operational range of less than 1 km and a maximum range 'greater than 25 km'. IHS Jane's has reported that trials have a shown a capability of up to 60 km. The CAMM-ER (extended range variant) shares the same characteristics of the original CAMM with the exception of an additional booster which significantly increases the missiles engagement range, out to 45 km (compared to the 25km above), which may ultimately be able to reach over 100km.

 

[Penguin]

The Litton-Ingalls PF4921 has these Ceafar/Ceamount panels on a different mast.

 

[Tank131]

Is CAMM-ER able to be quad packed like CAMM and would it still fit the a Sylver A50/mk41? Otherwise they would operate with 32 25km missiles which is still significantly better than anything PN currently has, though 32 45km missiles would be better. Also the addition of a seaRAM launcher as you have previously suggested would be a good idea. But if PN embarks on this effort, it should acquire the 4 remaining 4 Adelaides (1 already decommissioned, the other 3 will be by 2019/2020 when hobarts come online). These three ships already have fire control radars and VLS for essm. Get CAMM/CAMM-ER for them as well along with RAM. and you have sufficient start to your Naval air defense. Put them through a GENESIS upgrade for enhanced combat managmemt and you have 5 decent command amd control ship to control other members of the fleet (F-22Ps, FACs, and any future frigates)

 

[Quwa]

In terms of 'fire-and-forget' ARH SAM, it may be worth while to keep an eye on the Denel Dynamics Umkhonto ER and Umkhonto-R, as well as Marlin. The Marlin especially considering it is being designed spawn into a BVRAAM as well as SAM. The ER-version of the Umkhonto-IR will also be around, so the PN has the option to stock up both in its surface ships.

 

[Penguin]

Is CAMM-ER able to be quad packed like CAMM and would it still fit the a Sylver A50/mk41? Otherwise they would operate with 32 25km missiles which is still significantly better than anything PN currently has, though 32 45km missiles would be better. Also the addition of a seaRAM launcher as you have previously suggested would be a good idea. But if PN embarks on this effort, it should acquire the 4 remaining 4 Adelaides (1 already decommissioned, the other 3 will be by 2019/2020 when hobarts come online). These three ships already have fire control radars and VLS for essm. Get CAMM/CAMM-ER for them as well along with RAM. and you have sufficient start to your Naval air defense. Put them through a GENESIS upgrade for enhanced combat managmemt and you have 5 decent command amd control ship to control other members of the fleet (F-22Ps, FACs, and any future frigates)

I would think CMM-ER has a booster added, meaning it would be more difficult to quad pack in the shortest VLUs due to increased length. If the booster is 'fatter' than the rest of the missile, you can't quad-pack, but might still be able to duo-pack (So that an 8-cell VLU would give 16 missiles). Note that the regular CAMM has been reported to work out to 60km (i.e. ESSM range)

 

[Tank131]

That is great info on CAMM! That plus umkhonto-r/er/ir an hq16 give pn very good options going forward. Again for Alamghir or any Adelaide, the CAMM would clearly be the option as it already has plug and play capability with Sylver and Mk41. Given its quadpacking ability you have a great air defense for that frigate, especially if you add RAM. But to put this effort again you will need to have acquire at least 3-4 more OHPs (most likely would be the Adelaides). It is not worth it for Alamghir alone. And given tgat CAMM is active radar guidance, wouldn't you still a targeting radar for Alamghir?

 

[Penguin]

That is great info on CAMM! That plus umkhonto-r/er/ir an hq16 give pn very good options going forward. Again for Alamghir or any Adelaide, the CAMM would clearly be the option as it already has plug and play capability with Sylver and Mk41. Given its quadpacking ability you have a great air defense for that frigate, especially if you add RAM. But to put this effort again you will need to have acquire at least 3-4 more OHPs (most likely would be the Adelaides). It is not worth it for Alamghir alone. And given tgat CAMM is active radar guidance, wouldn't you still a targeting radar for Alamghir?

On the contrary, if you are dealing with addition of just a fire and forget missile, it's a simple operation: inserting the VLU forward as per the upgraded Turkish and Australian ships, and perhaps adding a console in the command center. For a fire and forget missile (passive IR homing, or active radar homing), you don't anything but a good, though preferably 3D surveillance radar. Which can easily be arranged.

The upgraded Perry's of Australia continued to use the original 2D (range and bearing) AN/SPS-49 with ESSM.

Turkey opted for the 3D (range, bearing and altitude) Smart-S Mk2.

While we are used to RAM from a seperate launcher (either the basic 21 round deck launcher, or the 11 round SeaRAM), it will be available for Mk41 with Extensible Launch System (quad packed > Mk41 = 32 RAM). Alternative to 1x 8-cell Mk41 could be 2 sets of 6 VL cells e.g. Mk48 GWLS or Mica/Sylver.

 

[khanasifm]

F22p main gun which is copy of Russian gun has Anti Air and Anti Surface role

Max. Ballistic Range 17,169 yards (15,700 m)
Max. Ceiling 12,030 yards (11,000 m)
Lethal Radius Against Aircraft 26 feet (8 m)

The 76.2 mm calibre main gun is a Chinese development of the Russian AK-176M, the main difference being that the Chinese variant adopts a re-designed stealthy turret to reduce radar cross-section. The gun is designed to engage ships, aircraft and anti-ship missiles.

that is as good or better than fm90n range

The 713th Institute (also known as Zhengzhou Electrical Engineering Research Institute) of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) of the People's Republic of China has developed a Chinese variant of AK-176, with Mr. Chen Dingfeng (陈汀峰) as the general designer. Design begun in 2000 and was completed in 2003. The primary difference between this H/PJ-26 and AK-176 is that the Chinese variant adopts a stealthy turret design, and more composite material is used in the construction of the turret. In addition, ready rounds for the H/PJ-26 are doubled to 150 rounds from the original 75 of the AK-176.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-176

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar-class_frigate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-7#HQ-7A_.28FM-90.29

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_3-60_ak176.htm

 

[Tajdar adil]

How many destroyer PNS have.

 

[Tank131]

That depends what you consoder a destroyer... the term frigate and destroyer are often interchangeable but in practical sense destroyers tend to be larger vessels in the 6-9000 ton range. Of theses pakistan has NONE. Frigates can be anywheree from 2-6000 tons. Of these Pakistan currently has 9 of which 4 are slated to be retired yesterday. Soon it will only have 5 (4 f22p and 1 OHP). That is why the heavy push to fill out the surface fleet (potentially 4 future corvettes 1-2400 ton range) in the form of the 2400 ton Ada class. There has also long been talk of mkre frigates (either redesigned f22p or 054a vs HPF of China)

 

[Arsalan]

How many destroyer PNS have.

None
Though some call the Tariq Class boats as destroyers but actually these are Type 21 Frigates and at 3700 ton displacement are not suitable to be called a destroyer. They do have decent ASW and AShW capabilities fitted in one boat (in shape of Harpoon AShM and Mark 46 torpedoes respectively) but do lack a proper AAW capability (Have phalanx as a CIWS and LY-60 as point defense AAM)

 

[niaz]

The displacement is only a general guideline. Classification of vessels into destroyers, frigate & corvettes was based on functions rather than the displacement.

A destroyer is a multirole long endurance fighting ship that can conduct a variety of missions. In addition to attacking other surface warships; a destroyer has full anti-submarine and anti anti-aircraft capability.

Frigates are normally designed to be cost effective warships. Frigates are good at the anti- submarine & anti-aircraft warfare but not strong enough for a blue water surface engagement involving destroyers & cruisers. Frigates tend to be smaller, more manoeuvrable & faster than destroyers, therefore used primarily for patrolling and escorting the naval flotillas & merchant ships.

Corvette is normally a small, lightly armed warship; smaller than a frigate but larger than a coastal patrol craft. Corvette is in effect a smaller & inexpensive version of frigate albeit with less endurance. Being more manoeuvrable & with smaller radar cross section than the frigate, corvette is ideally suited for the defence of economic zone.

However, the distinction in modern warships is a bit blurred. Frigates are sometimes larger than destroyers and corvettes equal in size to many frigates. Armed with state of the art missiles; even a corvette can successfully fight a destroyer in littoral waters. Hence a new class of corvette size warships called LCS (Littoral combat ship) are now in demand by the US Navy.

 

[khanasifm]

Test Umkhonto air defence in 2017

http://www.janes.com/article/65885/algerian-mekos-to-test-umkhonto-air-defence-in-2017

 

[khanasifm]

Looks like f22 is carrying 4 launchers for c-802a and 3 launchers rounded for a different version of land attack ??? /anti ship missiles, looks like launchers on 4th Azmat class FAC, unless its my vision and impression is wrong

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-military-multimedia.30020/page-409#ixzz4XT9SraPy