`PAKISTAN NAVY CONSIDERS TURKISH NAVAL COMPANIES AT PAR WITH ANY COMPANY WITHIN THE EUROPEAN DEFENSE INDUSTRY

[Falconless]

Maybe pakistan wants to scan the seas from Karachi to Antarctica?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I would like to know what kind of tonnage the Jinnah Class will be and the VLS count

5,000 tons+ with 48 cells would be great

if we add 4 x Ada Class with 16 x VLS each thats = 64 Cells

32 x VLS for 4 x Type 054A/P = 128 Cells

48 x 4 x Jinnah Class = 192 Cells

Total VLS count = 384 Cells

thats a very good launch capability within a decade

also the SSK fleet must ensure it can launch nuclear armed Babur

3,300 tons. 16 VLS cells.

 

[Zarvan]

I would like to know what kind of tonnage the Jinnah Class will be and the VLS count

5,000 tons+ with 48 cells would be great

if we add 4 x Ada Class with 16 x VLS each thats = 64 Cells

32 x VLS for 4 x Type 054A/P = 128 Cells

48 x 4 x Jinnah Class = 192 Cells

Total VLS count = 384 Cells

thats a very good launch capability within a decade

also the SSK fleet must ensure it can launch nuclear armed Babur

Sir VLS is not the issue the VLS which are of the size to carry and fire long range land attack cruise missiles is the real issue. That is what we need. We need ships which have VLS system to carry and fire long range land attack cruise missiles.

India already has those ships. Only thing they need is much longer range Brahmos which they are working on. We need to answer this capability other wise things will get really worse for us.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

1. The PN's knocking it out of the park.

2. How many ASW/MPAs does the PN need? They've already roadmapped x10 LRMPAs to join the x4 RAS-72s. Does it sound like the PN is open to adding more? Could they aim for an even bigger design (A320/B737-tier)? @JamD @kursed @SQ8

3. It sounds like the PN exercised the option for 2 additional Damen OPVs?

4. I wonder who won the shallow-water attack sub (SWATS) bid?

I am beginning to think there is an under the table arrangement with China around naval development. The amount of expenditure is not in concert with Pakistan’s fiscal position. With naval units they are very pricey but what people probably don’t realize the amount of money needed to keep these units operational, even when they are not plying the oceans. There is more here than meets the eye.

 

[Madafacka Jones]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Why doesn't the PN opt for HQ-9 on the Jinnah class?

It's a pretty big missle, but they could have made the Jinnah class cater to it, in the end we would have a long range SAM in the same tier as the Barak-8 which IN operates, instead of CAMM-ER which is medium range.

Or does the HQ-9 have the same issues as HQ-16s (ARH seeker + reliant on illuminators)?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am beginning to think there is an under the table arrangement with China around naval development. The amount of expenditure is not in concert with Pakistan’s fiscal position. With naval units they are very pricey but what people probably don’t realize the amount of money needed to keep these units operational, even when they are not plying the oceans. There is more here than meets the eye.

Potentially, but naval warships aren't necessarily as costly as a new fighter fleet. Yes, for the PN, this is significant growth, but 12 new surface warships wouldn't cross $3-4 bn in total. Moreover, the PN will amortize it over several decades. OTOH, you'd clear $3-4bn on a single squadron of 4.5+ gen fighters from Europe or USA.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Why doesn't the PN opt for HQ-9 on the Jinnah class?

It's a pretty big missle, but they could have made the Jinnah class cater to it, in the end we would have a long range SAM in the same tier as the Barak-8 which IN operates, instead of CAMM-ER which is medium range.

Or does the HQ-9 have the same issues as HQ-16s (ARH seeker + reliant on illuminators)?

I think designing the J-Class for the HQ-9 would've required a bigger ship, therefore more cost in the way of steel, etc. It's not just the steel in fact, but probably ensuring the ship isn't too big where it's infeasible for KSEW to produce it rapidly enough. Moreover, I think we'll start seeing compact-enough long-range SAMs -- e.g., Turkey's SIPER -- in the coming years. By the time the J-Class' mid-life-update comes, I think it'll have a long-range SAM.

 

[S.Y.A]

3,300 tons. 16 VLS cells.

that is a shame.

 

[Battlion25]

Maybe pakistan wants to scan the seas from Karachi to Antarctica?

Go home Sharif Nawaz

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

that is a shame.

tbh I think the 2 stats conceal the J-Class' real potential.

There's nothing technically stopping the J-Class from deploying either long-range SAMs or bigger cruise missiles (like Harbah, CM-302, etc). With SAMs specifically, we simply need a SAM design that can fit in the J-Class' confines. I think this will become available to the PN in the coming years.

As for the 3,300-ton displacement, the PN likely wanted it in the 3,000-3,500-ton range.

They went with a 'lighter' frigate to control for costs and, as importantly, to probably ensure KSEW can readily support this design. While KSEW has the capacity for heavier ships on paper, I think a heavier ship does translate into a more complex project. You are working with more steel, more complexity, more risk, etc. You're also allocating more skilled human resources to that one ship; so yes, you have the deadweight capacity, but you may not have the overall capacity to pull off bigger ships.

This leads to another point. The PN may have opted for this design with the aim of getting KSEW to construct several of these at a time. It might have also kept local inputs in mind (e.g., steel, subsystems, etc), which may have influenced the design as we see it.

Finally, the weapon and subsystem technology will get better. They'll get more compact and more capable. So, the J-Class will improve quite a bit within its structural confines. In fact, I don't think the PN will change much from this blueprint in terms of length and displacement. Instead, it'll work to make this design even more advanced (e.g., better materials, more automation, etc) and incorporate better sensors and weapons (e.g., quad-pack SAM).

Yes, it's all modest in the big scheme of things, but it'd also expose the fact that PN only wants surface ships that are "good enough." Otherwise, the bulk of the investment will go towards submarines, long-range missiles, fast attack crafts, and other A2/AD-focused purchases.

 

[S.Y.A]

tbh I think the 2 stats conceal the J-Class' real potential.

There's nothing technically stopping the J-Class from deploying either long-range SAMs or bigger cruise missiles (like Harbah, CM-302, etc). With SAMs specifically, we simply need a SAM design that can fit in the J-Class' confines. I think this will become available to the PN in the coming years.

As for the 3,300-ton displacement, the PN likely wanted it in the 3,000-3,500-ton range.

They went with a 'lighter' frigate to control for costs and, as importantly, to probably ensure KSEW can readily support this design. While KSEW has the capacity for heavier ships on paper, I think a heavier ship does translate into a more complex project. You are working with more steel, more complexity, more risk, etc. You're also allocating more skilled human resources to that one ship; so yes, you have the deadweight capacity, but you may not have the overall capacity to pull off bigger ships.

This leads to another point. The PN may have opted for this design with the aim of getting KSEW to construct several of these at a time. It might have also kept local inputs in mind (e.g., steel, subsystems, etc), which may have influenced the design as we see it.

Finally, the weapon and subsystem technology will get better. They'll get more compact and more capable. So, the J-Class will improve quite a bit within its structural confines. In fact, I don't think the PN will change much from this blueprint in terms of length and displacement. Instead, it'll work to make this design even more advanced (e.g., better materials, more automation, etc) and incorporate better sensors and weapons (e.g., quad-pack SAM).

Yes, it's all modest in the big scheme of things, but it'd also expose the fact that PN only wants surface ships that are "good enough." Otherwise, the bulk of the investment will go towards submarines, long-range missiles, fast attack crafts, and other A2/AD-focused purchases.

I was comparing it (in my mind) to singapore's formidable class frigate, its in the same weight class, but has a 32 cell VLS.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I was comparing it (in my mind) to singapore's formidable class frigate, its in the same weight class, but has a 32 cell VLS.

Yep, but that has little to do with the J-Class itself, and more with the PN's lack of VLS options. If the PN could buy a more compact VLS design like SYLVER, then the J-Class would also have 16 quad-packable cells (resulting in 64 missiles). Instead, the PN's got to work with a less efficient design in the GWS.

 

[Battlion25]

Sir VLS is not the issue the VLS which are of the size to carry and fire long range land attack cruise missiles is the real issue. That is what we need. We need ships which have VLS system to carry and fire long range land attack cruise missiles.

View attachment 817169

India already has those ships. Only thing they need is much longer range Brahmos which they are working on. We need to answer this capability other wise things will get really worse for us.

This will be answered and outmatched easily..

 

[Zarvan]

This will be answered and outmatched easily..

I hope so it gets answered.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

The Sea Sultan is a mid-sized LRMPA as the Embraer Lineage 1000E has an MTOW of 54,500 kg.

The Kawasaki P-1 has a MTOW of 79,700 kg

The Boeing P-8 has a MTOW of 85,250 kg

So, anything bigger than the Sea Sultan -- e.g., using a Boeing 737 or A320 as the basis -- would, at most, make it as large as the Boeing P-8. But the issue isn't just range, but also endurance, payload, and crew comfort (for long-haul missions).

I thought Sea Sultans will be at par with Pi8s whenever they will be operationalized. If not so, we shouldn't have them more than 5. Rest of the money can be spend on bigger LRMPAs.

 

[Qutb-ud-din-Aibak]

Go home Sharif Nawaz