Pakistan Navy Chief Desires a Nuclear Submarine to restore Balance of Power in the region

[Waiting]

At present, we own, at least one.... end of decade is far away...

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

If it were so, its strange that CCP have deliberately not bailed out Pakistan by now with that clear long term picture in mind. While sitting on 3 trillion USD stockpile.

How much do you think CCP should give Pakistan? Or how much money do you think Pakistan should receive from China? Have you considered the feelings of Chinese taxpayers?

 

[Destranator]

How much do you think CCP should give Pakistan? Or how much money do you think Pakistan should receive from China? Have you considered the feelings of Chinese taxpayers?

CCP cares about feelings these days?

 

[maverick1977]

may Navy might be strong enough with the help of airforce will reign in the army jarnails.

 

[Abid123]

Yes that's what they told Libya

Check the HDI of Libya and Pakistan. Also literacy rate and GDP per capita.

 

[Rank]

How the fu(k did Pakistan make Nukes, build planes, nuke plants , build Submarines etc when it was broke?


Nuke Nazis when they step out of line?

****** saaf tu ham nazyoon say pooch kar kartay hoo itne hamari okaat nahe behkaryoon ki tarhan eek WB kay agay mintay tarlay kartay phir rahay ho bhai jaan phati parti hey 1B dayday baba... aur nuke tumnay Nazyoon ko aur pata nahe Indians ko aur pata nahe kis kis ko karna hey ... Americans ki marzi kay bagair Jacocabad say tu ham F16 BLK 52 nikal nahie sakhtay apni marzi say btain karalo bas

 

[BamsiBey]

Can anyone explain the sudden desire of Naval chiefs to acquire multi million weapons deal when the country is on the verge of default??

Is the Naval Chief feeling a little left out of the Ukraine-weapons-commissions scene??

 

[Chute]

I would rather that intelligent observers like you did not challenge the Pakistani fanboy equivalent of Nephelokokkugi.

Instead, let them see for themselves

1. The drastic reduction in population, trending towards an aging population and insufficient younger workers earning enough to pay for the maintenance and upkeep of older citizens;
2. The debt overhang of individual Chinese provinces, that will soon lead to defaults, or to papered-over compromises to hide the truth;
3. The increasing amount of infrastructure, created to keep up the tempo of development, that exceeds foreseeable demand, and that has led to a crisis in the housing market, and outstanding quality high-speed trains that run empty,
4. The inability to give their young graduates jobs;

Nobody is going to be a sugar daddy. Nations, as well as individuals, have to earn their own livelihood.

True. A fair summary of the issues the CCP and China at large have on their plate.

My intention sometimes is simply to see which members are maybe interested to unpack things at deeper level (from perspective of having seen vastly differing systems close up... some too close for comfort) than adhoc deja vu way normally done here to fill pages up.

Circle peg wont go into square hole....yet lot of folks are new to this or unable to realise it is the case here....or maybe the intent is just to further a tantrum for the sake of a tantrum.... instead of finding a real solution.

Past all the imperfections allowed to fester at the top or percolate to the bottom.....what is the essence of the liberal democratic system in the end compared to an authoritarian even totalitarian one.

You know better than most here, what the experience and impact has been for me.

Which one of the two has gone out of its way to take from me and deny to me things it once promised it would let endure as they were. I can only count and imagine what must have been the cost for many of those unable to have left it...past those I know personally.

Yet it still found way to get to me across the ocean with some new contagion and took from me again good people I knew in the other system I had made home....

...and what this other has despite its imperfections afforded me so much and literally everything I have....and why it was able and willing to do so.

What are the psychologies (concentrated or more collective) that formed them the way they are to begin with and how that impacts their relative evolution (if any) over time since....that in my case has distilled to such a contrast of giver and taker....and how that forms the backdrop in much of the analysis I do on such matters.

What are the inertias and residuals to consider for still others that want to shift friendship and trust from one to the other...jumping in the water without trying to properly know of these things or are oblivious, uncaring or insulated to them.

The mind is a strange thing and it does strange things if its not aligned with its larger body and some would say the soul....at cost to all in the end.

Minds of the powerful anywhere are stranger and more dangerous still if they do not know the larger body ability, needs and reality well.

As Garfield found out in one short episode where he set out to run after an icecream truck, but could not get very far and promptly concluded as he collapsed.... "the mind is willing, but the flesh is weak".

 

[khansaheeb]

Can anyone explain the sudden desire of Naval chiefs to acquire multi million weapons deal when the country is on the verge of default??

Is the Naval Chief feeling a little left out of the Ukraine-weapons-commissions scene??

What use is your money, wealth etc if you can't protect yourself like Iraq, Syria, Libya , Kuwait, Ukraine etc.

 

[Chute]

How much do you think CCP should give Pakistan? Or how much money do you think Pakistan should receive from China? Have you considered the feelings of Chinese taxpayers?

I don't have any answer for this and it wouldn't matter if I had one anyway.

I am just pointing out that certain things have clearly not happened if everything is proceeding in some tic tac toe easily charted way.

That maybe it is worth looking into the specifics of that first and why that is.....rather than saying X amount of money is needed on the gravy train next.

You care about basic things yourself and fix the underlying stuff....the rest comes naturally.

China knows a lot of this already. I can compare for example Vishy Anand analysis of Ding Liren (the new world champ) for a reason. I can talk to you about confucian principles as well....and did China finally find its way in 20th century regarding that after much upsetting and confusion.....so that it could finally renew and strengthen itself.

But others that refuse to align mind and body more....find a weak body and overactive mind in denial about it.

So its not really CCP matter at all I am talking about (when I talk of the Pakistani context here w.r.t CCP not progressing things as some expect them to naturally do). CCP does things regarding to their ability and interest the way they perceive and calculate in the end.

It can and likely will be quite different to what many Pakistani elitists here on PDF (a great deal living in the West to begin with) think and expect.

 

[ziaulislam]

We need to Work on our economy for at least a decade.

In the meantime, we going with the Turks for a joint program for 4 subs each with VLS (the minimum to maintain at least one out on patrol at all times). Turkey gets out of work sub engineers from the Russkies and Pakistan seeks help from China. (Remember if Pakistan buys SSNs from China, if they were willing to sell it direct, it shift the relationship from Threshold alliance to full blown alliance in the eyes of the US, so Pakistan has to avoid that).

We need a small but modern SSN akin to the barracuda of the French navy. The Long term goal of both Pakistan and Turkey, if they can build up their economies to allow it, is strategic autonomy, like France. Turkey is further along in this goal, and would probably love to have Pakistan be a customer for most of the parts in the initial phase of such a project.

For Pakistan, the navy protecting the SLOC between Djibouti and the Makran coast allows it to promote the utility of its ports. So an SSN is an investment, but only after Pakistan gets the fundamentals of its economy above water.

If we don’t care about blowback from the west, with regards to buying Chinese SSNs, then we should just buy 4 Type 093G SSNs. The Huludao shipyard can build over a dozen subs at a time. Building 4 new subs or selling off their current Type 093G will be easily replaced in a few years. The G model has the VLS tubes, which hopefully can be fitted with the 1500 Km YJ-21 hypersonic missiles; providing survivable second strike capability against 18 independent targets. (See model of the sub below)

Its pump jet is one feature that makes it a modern sub that can serve for decades to come. Towed array is another. Basically everything in a modern frontline USN or UK attack sub.

If the PN actually went full out and acquired 3 Type 093B attack boats and 3 Type 093B SSGN, it could keep one of each out at a time, and bog down the IN in ASW operations throughout the Indian Ocean, while the Hangor and Agosta Class boats maintain the pressure closer to home in the Arabian Sea.

Emerging from the Shadows

Although the new Liaoni

www.usni.org

Btw, if Pakistan buys the Type 093B/G; it could be part of a “rent seeking strategic deal” for Pakistan to protect the SLOC between Makran and Djibouti/GCC for China (and Russia). But that would defacto require the threshold alliance it to a full strategic alliance with China if Pakistan is to fully benefit, because it would really be putting all its eggs in the Chinese basket. Pakistan shouldn’t sell itself short if it decides to go down that route, this kind of move would be for all the marbles. Pakistan needs economic investment and an export market if it to compensate for all it could lose elsewhere.

French Barracuda SSN is approx. 5300 tons and the Type 093B/G is approx. 7000 tons. The noise level of the Type 093B/G is in the league of the improved akulas, equal to what India operates. Considering China is building Type 095, possibly equal to USN Virginia class boats, the Type 093B is already dated technology for China, and probably ok to be cleared for export for China, akin to the AUKUS deal for Australia.

A Threshold Alliance: The China-Pakistan Military Relationship

Geopolitical shifts in South Asia over the past decade, driven by sharper US-China competition, a precipitous decline in China-India relations, and the 2021 withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan, have pushed the Chinese and Pakistani militaries closer together. The countries’ armies and...

www.usip.org

Type 093 Shang-class Nuclear Attack Submarine

www.globalsecurity.org

A view of the Type 093B

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620876003106254849

Politics aside fixing Pakistan economy is impossible

 

[SaadH]

the money will never benefit the people

so better to use it for military purpose at least it will keep us safe

Military toys have never kept us safe

 

[Joe Shearer]

Politics aside fixing Pakistan economy is impossible

...but...but...but Titanium Tony wants to fight (and win - very important, MUST be mentioned) a war.

 

[ziaulislam]

...but...but...but Titanium Tony wants to fight (and win - very important, MUST be mentioned) a war.

Problem of Pakistan is that people are confused
They don't know what they want

It seems more like India of 1980s and early 1990s

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

I don't have any answer for this and it wouldn't matter if I had one anyway.

I am just pointing out that certain things have clearly not happened if everything is proceeding in some tic tac toe easily charted way.

That maybe it is worth looking into the specifics of that first and why that is.....rather than saying X amount of money is needed on the gravy train next.

You care about basic things yourself and fix the underlying stuff....the rest comes naturally.

China knows a lot of this already. I can compare for example Vishy Anand analysis of Ding Liren (the new world champ) for a reason. I can talk to you about confucian principles as well....and did China finally find its way in 20th century regarding that after much upsetting and confusion.....so that it could finally renew and strengthen itself.

But others that refuse to align mind and body more....find a weak body and overactive mind in denial about it.

So its not really CCP matter at all I am talking about (when I talk of the Pakistani context here w.r.t CCP not progressing things as some expect them to naturally do). CCP does things regarding to their ability and interest the way they perceive and calculate in the end.

It can and likely will be quite different to what many Pakistani elitists here on PDF (a great deal living in the West to begin with) think and expect.

China's foreign exchange reserves are the wealth of all Chinese people. It is not the private property of the CCP.