Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[MastanKhan]

Who told you we needed JH7B---or the J16's? we dont need such stuff mr einstein, a pack of 8 submarines is a good and powerful punch and it caters for attrition also (dont forget this fact, never ever forget it), we may increase number of surface vessels as and when situation allows but we must have 12-15 active submarines to keep indian navy at arms length

Hi,

Agree to disagree please---. Did your dad not teach you manner not to call him ' mr einstein '.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Hi,

Respectfully---kaho khait ki---suno khalian ki---.

The first thing in car sales 101 is learn to listen to what is being said by the customer---because there is only the time of first 30---45 seconds where a decision has been made by the customer if they buy from you or not.

See---I do not have any issue with getting 8 submarines in the 10 years time period.

The issue I have is having the 10 billion dollars tied to ONE PROJECT for the term of 10 years.

This project could have been easily split in two 5 year periods---. The first 10 billion split in two---5 for 4 subs---and 5 billion for the navy and air force---.

And then at the begining of the 5th year another contract signed for 4 more subs.


The reason of it being signed like this is the COMMISION on 10 billion dollars and kick backs---.

With one item for purchase---the commission / kickback is much larger than if it would have included naval vessels and aircraft as well.

In this day and age---there is nothing deceptive about any program---be it on the surface or under waters---. Each and everything is in public domain---. Libraries in the U S are full of INNOCENT MATERIAL---you just need to know where and what to look for---.

Just like you invested your life in the air force---I invested mine in library books---full time.

You lose the chidlren because your screwed up in your assessment of the enemy---you guys wanted to make a vietnam of the U S in afghanistan---not realizing that over 4 million vietnamese died in that conflict and vietnam is still not the same---.

Not realizing that you were allowing a christian army to invade a muslim nation.

If you had listened to this car salesman some 15 years ago and gone in and killed OBL and his team in afg---and had a strong marketing / propaganda campaign against the fundos / terrorists---and not busy in blaming the U S for the 9/11---you would not have been in this place.

If you had listened to this car salesman---you would have made a much better deal with the U S---and what are the americans---they are CAR SALESMEN---the congressmen---the senators---the staffers---the president---the vice---they are worst than a car salesman.

If you had read the history of the Japans---you would have learnt---either they were a warrior clan---or they were a peasant / farmer clan---.

You would have learnt that the japanese warriors were very bad at making deals---but the peasants were very good deal makers---and so were the koreans.

All this blood shed and sacrifice that you mentioned---because you did not make the right deal---you did not recognize your enemy---you did not fight the enemy hard enough right from day one---.

Why were you not able to recognize the enemy---because of a lack of knowledge---because you have the lack of books in your country---no libraries to enlighten the mind and give you information.

Which one of you talks about Pakistan first and keep the islamic brotherhood away---.

If you had known world history---you would have known that there is blood gore death and destruction---murder and plunder of scales unknown from the lands where the U S military has gone thru---.

They murder and butcher in the name of their god---other nations may stop after awhile---but the U S does not know when to stop.

If you had read history my man---you would have know---not to let the Lion get the taste of Blood---. You would not have allowed the christians to kill the muslims---because once the christians found out---that the muslims die as easily as anyone else---they would not stop the killing---.

My brother---you are a good person at heart---we disagree on many issues---but trust me on this---I know the devil beyond your wildest imaginations---.

Submarine deal is not for 10 billion USD, its for 5, so stop spreading disinformation

 

[MastanKhan]

Submarine deal is not for 10 billion USD, its for 5, so stop spreading disinformation

Hi,

It is not a matter of disinformation---but a matter of CORRECTION----.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Submarine deal is not for 10 billion USD, its for 5, so stop spreading disinformation

Rather than discussing what my dad taught me and what your dad taught you and what his dad taught him we should focus on the subject

Hi,

It is not a matter of disinformation---but a matter of CORRECTION----.

Its misleading and that too by design

Anybody suggesting JH7B---or the J16's for Pakistan Navy needs to get his head examined, these planes are not fit for our needs

 

[ziaulislam]

1. subs cost 300 million$ this is cheaper than any frigatte and way cheaper to operate as well
2. all nations fighting asymetrical forces prefer subs from WW2 till date
3. 8 subs when in service will be replacing 2 subs so PN will have 11 not 13 subs vs 25+ indian subs

 

[MastanKhan]

Rather than discussing what my dad taught me and what your dad taught you and what his dad taught him we should focus on the subject


Its misleading and that too by design

Anybody suggesting JH7B---or the J16's for Pakistan Navy needs to get his head examined, these planes are not fit for our needs

Hi,'

Then don't start name calling---simple as that---.

It is very easy to negate anyone with two lines----why don't you write in detail why they are not needed and for what reasons----

 

[T-123456]

disagree, it needs a fully maintained port to do any repairs to the subs as well as re-fueling it

Do some research on submarine bases.
Balaklava Ukraine(Soviet),Kuril Islands Russia(Soviet),Hara Estonia(Soviet),Sazan Albania(Soviet),Vis Croatia(Yugoslavia),Johnson atol(US) etc,these are some of those we know of,they are old and abandoned
Many countries have hidden submarine bases(out of sight).
You dont need a port to have a submarine base.

 

[Inception-06]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

Mr. Khan any asset like the Jh-7B is useless without a strong air cover or name it air defense umbrella over the Sea ! Your JH-7 will fall down like stones to the earth when IAF and IN reach its full capacity to operate in the Arabian Sea. Why not a Chinese Sukhoi Variant such as the J-11 family, which can play both roles air defense through air superiority role on long ranges and the fighter-bomber role of the JH-7. The PN has done it very well to buy 8 submarines, with this 11 future submarines (3 Agosta and 8 Chinese) PN will give IN and IAF a bad headache, it's more difficult to hunt a submarine than a ship in my opinion, that's what the PN wants, to lead in one arena, if not in the air and over the water than under the Sea, they want to repeat the Ghazi shock.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

You can't get that many frigates and jets for just $2.5B.

 

[T-123456]

Basically how much your earn by spreading anti Pakistan armed forces propaganda or you are thinking you are more intelligent or capable than military elites who successfully managed to ward off enemy's evil eye more than 6 decades....

pricks are everywhere.

He is not spreading anti Pakistan propaganda,he is just a concerned Pakistani,he has every right to be critical about certain things.
Lets all calm down and respect each others views.

 

[MastanKhan]

You can't get that many frigates and jets for just $2.5B.

It was in error based on a 10 billion dollar number---.

Mr. Khan any asset like the Jh-7B is useless without a strong air cover or name it airdefence umbrella over the Sea ! Your JH-7 will fall down like stones to the earth when IAF and IN reaches its full capacity to operate in the arabian Sea. Why not a chinese Sukhoi Variant such as the J-11 family, which can play both roles air defence through air superiority role on long ranges and the fighter-bomber role of the JH-7. The PN has done it very well to buy 8 submarines, with this 11 future sumbmarines (3 Agosta and 8 chinese) PN will give IN and IAF bad headache, its more difficult to hunt a submarine than a ship in my opinion, thats what the PN wants, to lead in one arena, if not in the air and over the water than under the Sea, they want to repeat the Ghazi shock.

Hi,

In real sense---you cannot do much with the submarines in your daily affairs---they may wreak havoc on the enemy---they may not---.

But your surface fleet is always visible---either on the seas on in flight---its presence is a bigger deterrence---it projects visible power.

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---. That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Always keep this in mind---the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " and mumbai is the center of it all----.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Deep strikes into enemy territory will create such a panic that it may result in catastrophic failure of enemy defenses---.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles away and be gone.

Again as I state---I say JH7B---because it is the least expensive and the best option for the money---.

The bottom line is that if you are not able to force the enemy to spread its assets---you are in deep trouble right from the word go.

 

[Fireurimagination]

I believe Pakistan Navies doctrines and plans revolve around their submarines hence more submarines neglecting other surface ships. PN doctrine is defensive in nature I don't think they have inclination or capability to attack Indian ports or navy they want to defend their coastline and hence the submarines and not surface ships

 

[Inception-06]

It was in error based on a 10 billion dollar number---.



Hi,

In real sense---you cannot do much with the submarines in your daily affairs---they may wreak havoc on the enemy---they may not---.

But your surface fleet is always visible---either on the seas on in flight---its presence is a bigger deterrence---it projects visible power.

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---. That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Always keep this in mind---the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " and mumbai is the center of it all----.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Deep strikes into enemy territory will create such a panic that it may result in catastrophic failure of enemy defenses---.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles away and be gone.

Again as I state---I say JH7B---because it is the least expensive and the best option for the money---.

The bottom line is that if you are not able to force the enemy to spread its assets---you are in deep trouble right from the word go.

Well, I agree with every point, what you write here,but still can't imagine how the JH-7 should operate without a decent LONG RANGE AIR DEFENCE escort ? You did just spare out the whole IAF air defense on Ground, Sea, and Air. Any Jh-7B on a deep strike mission will face a wall of Indian air defense, provided by the Indian Army (such as the S-300 from the ground), IAF and IN !

 

[Aasimkhan]

Hi,'

Then don't start name calling---simple as that---.

It is very easy to negate anyone with two lines----why don't you write in detail why they are not needed and for what reasons----

Hi,'

Then don't start name calling---simple as that---.

It is very easy to negate anyone with two lines----why don't you write in detail why they are not needed and for what reasons----

It was in error based on a 10 billion dollar number---.



Hi,

In real sense---you cannot do much with the submarines in your daily affairs---they may wreak havoc on the enemy---they may not---.

But your surface fleet is always visible---either on the seas on in flight---its presence is a bigger deterrence---it projects visible power.

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---. That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Always keep this in mind---the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " and mumbai is the center of it all----.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Deep strikes into enemy territory will create such a panic that it may result in catastrophic failure of enemy defenses---.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles away and be gone.

Again as I state---I say JH7B---because it is the least expensive and the best option for the money---.

The bottom line is that if you are not able to force the enemy to spread its assets---you are in deep trouble right from the word go.

So in your opinion JH7 and J16 are DEEP STRIKE fighters, boy you need to get your facts straight, a submarine is a far far deadlier weapons with a much much longer range and an element of SURPRISE on its side, JH7 is 60s technology and we dont have aircraft carriers, what good is a plane with 150 KM range if u have seen the map ?

I believe Pakistan Navies doctrines and plans revolve around their submarines hence more submarines neglecting other surface ships. PN doctrine is defensive in nature I don't think they have inclination or capability to attack Indian ports or navy they want to defend their coastline and hence the submarines and not surface ships

We have gone on the offensive before (1965) and we will go on the offensive again and again. Being defensive does not mean we restrict yourself to our coastal waters only. Best defense is in offence. We will hit India wherever we can, anywhere in the world and submarines are offensive weapons. My life's greatest moment will be when I see an Indian aircraft carrier broken into two pieces as a result from anti-ship missile.

It was in error based on a 10 billion dollar number---.



Hi,

In real sense---you cannot do much with the submarines in your daily affairs---they may wreak havoc on the enemy---they may not---.

But your surface fleet is always visible---either on the seas on in flight---its presence is a bigger deterrence---it projects visible power.

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---. That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Always keep this in mind---the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " and mumbai is the center of it all----.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Deep strikes into enemy territory will create such a panic that it may result in catastrophic failure of enemy defenses---.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles away and be gone.

Again as I state---I say JH7B---because it is the least expensive and the best option for the money---.

The bottom line is that if you are not able to force the enemy to spread its assets---you are in deep trouble right from the word go.

And how you have identified this "the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " ? and if it is achilles heel its more than 7000 km long, Achilles heel is supposed to be a point target isnt it ?

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-navy-a-day-late-a-dollar-short.465878/page-4#ixzz4SPSvR977"

 

[randomradio]

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---.

Those aircraft can do no such thing. As it stands today, you have to fight through roughly 10 squadrons of fighter jets if you are to make it anywhere remotely close to Mumbai, not counting both the IN's and IAF's A2/AD zones. So we are already spread out.

Anyway, I hear the JF-17s have outstanding range, more than the Su-30MKI, so why do you need similar aircraft with similar range?

That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Incorrect. What you are talking about is creating multiple fronts so the enemy forces thin out. Pakistan is incapable of creating multiple fronts anymore.

However, you want the enemy forces in a battlefield to concentrate so you can bomb the hell out of them.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Contradictory statement. We have spread out our forces even without the threat of a heavy fighter in PAF's arsenal.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles away and be gone.