Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated

[Pakistani Fighter]

The Turks are working on their own 10-ton helicopter. I think they'll adapt that design for naval ops too.

It's a long-term bet, but I'm all ears for holding these things off for the sake of getting the latest design, and get our industry some serious work. If not the Turks, select an existing design, but with offsets and co-production.

But this would've worked out better if we had back-loaded frigates to the 2030s and, instead, focused on cutting-edge submarines and lower-cost OPVs until then. So, get the subs for A2/AD, and OPVs to police our seas. I think OPVs would've been fine with AW139s for SAR/ASW (i.e., standardize with the PAF and PA).

But from 2030, we can start inducting MILGEM-Js with a 10-ton helicopter, and in parallel, have the PA and PAF also start inducting the 10-ton helicopter. Between the MoD and MoI, Pakistan could need 200 such helicopters, easily.

Can u tell me about PN AWECS?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Can u tell me about PN AWECS?

tbh, I don't know. I can say that in the 2000s the PN asked for 3 P-3Bs with the Hawkeye-2000, so it did want an AEW&C capability at some point. Ultimately, it started working with the PAF's ZDK03, so if anything, I reckon any plan for a dedicated AEW&C capability could involve a transfer of the ZDK03 from the PAF to PN.

 

[Tipu7]

The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.

The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform.

If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.

Germany is acquiring the Naval versions of NH-90 named as Sea Lion to replace Sea King and Sea Tiger to replace Sea Lynx.
My speculation is, alongside AW-101, NH-90 can also become an option. (PROVIDED that if we don't include AW-159 or any new version of AW-139)

 

[Gentelman]

Bcz of LRSAM. Its better to detect and destroy Supersonic Anti ship Missile from as far as possible. Also you don't want enemy MPAs closed to your surface fleets. Also your Long range Radars of destroyers can help guide your Long Range Anti Ship Missiles

Bigger the targer, greater the chance for destruction amd more will be morale loss....
Missile interseption in itself is a complex thing with low success rate let alone a ram jet based missile... And how many missiles can we interrupt? IN have a strong heavy jets presence which can also carry that missile you're talking about.
So we have to decide if we want to fire the missiles and pish away enemy or let enemy fire missiles and try hiding our assets.
MPA will not be too close to our border if we have a seperate air arm of PN. Its the need of time.
We already lost our PAFs strategic bombers squadron in pages of history.
PN should be small with multiple medium multipurpose boats to deliver the punch with SFs, subs and air arm.
Once we are on a backfoot we don't have a lot of space to effectively hide or run away, it'll be more or like 1971 or 1965....

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Once we are on a backfoot

How to prevent this?

 

[Gentelman]

How to prevent this?

Simply by putting them on backfoot...
They have much more to loose. So make them loose some and their specific force will go into hiding.
But can suddenly attack unexpectedly...
Moreover the future naval war will be based on fast Electronic Intelligence and its effective usage into planning strategic ops so EW, AWEACS and MPAs can be deciding factors...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Germany is acquiring the Naval versions of NH-90 named as Sea Lion to replace Sea King and Sea Tiger to replace Sea Lynx.
My speculation is, alongside AW-101, NH-90 can also become an option. (PROVIDED that if we don't include AW-159 or any new version of AW-139)

I think the AW139 (or T625) will come to the PN regardless. The PN also flies old Alouette IIIs, and its SAR needs will increase in the coming years (especially with the influx of OPVs and the MSA's 1,500-ton MOPVs). But if they acquire the AW159 or heavily modified AW139 (for SAR), then NH-90/MH-60R is out.

 

[Yasser76]

I think the AW139 (or T625) will come to the PN regardless. The PN also flies old Alouette IIIs, and its SAR needs will increase in the coming years (especially with the influx of OPVs and the MSA's 1,500-ton MOPVs). But if they acquire the AW159 or heavily modified AW139 (for SAR), then NH-90/MH-60R is out.

Don't think it will be AW-101 or NH-90. PN hanger size will be small, especially on Yarmook Class and MILGEM. Deck clearance may be an issue too. My guess is either Naval AW139 or Wildcat.

 

[Blacklight]

The only thing I'm still confident of is that the PN wants something in the size/capability of the S-70/MH-60.

The issue with the AW159 is that it's mostly limited to ASW/SAR, you can't use it for troop transport, though that is an area the PN is interested in supporting (for SSGN, Marines). It can ask for the AW101, but a S-70/MH-60-type of helicopter can cover ASW, SAR, troop transport, and AShW in one platform.

If not the MH-60R or NH-90NFH, then I think a navalized AW189K could be of interest.

Something tells me the AW101 might actually be a reality, a few years from now. IA.

 

[Akh1112]

About 990km
India has supersonic AshM and its better that it be 8ntercepted as far away as possible. Also you don't want enemy's MPAs to come close to your ships

But theres no actual reason to invest in a larger, costlier platform when the HHQ-16 based ones will suffice just fine, 70km isnt a small amount, especially not when itll be assisted with other assets, i.e MPA's and AEWAC's aircraft to assist with targetting

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Something tells me the AW101 might actually be a reality, a few years from now. IA.

If so, then the PN is moving towards a heavyweight/lightweight combination, i.e., AW101 (heavy/shore-based) and AW159/AW139 (light/ship-based). But I reckon AW159 is contingent on the PAA receiving T129s, since they'd share the same engine (and can use the same MRO facility at PAC). Now, if the AH-1Zs are coming through, then perhaps the CTS800 for the ATAKs are following too, which paves the road for AW159.

 

[Blacklight]

If so, then the PN is moving towards a heavyweight/lightweight combination, i.e., AW101 (heavy/shore-based) and AW159/AW139 (light/ship-based). But I reckon AW159 is contingent on the PAA receiving T129s, since they'd share the same engine (and can use the same MRO facility at PAC). Now, if the AH-1Zs are coming through, then perhaps the CTS800 for the ATAKs are following too, which paves the road for AW159.

I dont think AW159 would come, but rather the AW139/AW189/Z20 are what seems to be of interest.

Issue with Z20 is that it is a very new platform, and yet to mature.

On the T129, I was surprised to learn that the Turks were denied license to export to the Philippines as well. So best if we move on from the T129

Philippine attack helicopter purchase descends into deadlock
20 May, 20
https://helihub.com/2020/05/20/philippine-attack-helicopter-purchase-descends-into-deadlock/

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I dont think AW159 would come, but rather the AW139/AW189/Z20 are what seems to be of interest.

Issue with Z20 is that it is a very new platform, and yet to mature.

On the T129, I was surprised to learn that the Turks were denied license to export to the Philippines as well. So best if we move on from the T129

Philippine attack helicopter purchase descends into deadlock
20 May, 20
https://helihub.com/2020/05/20/philippine-attack-helicopter-purchase-descends-into-deadlock/

Yep, well if the AH-1Zs come, then we know that this time it wasn't Pakistan's fault (license denial). I reckon the Army will try slipping mmWs with the AH-1Zs, and then circle back to the Z-10ME in larger numbers.

 

[Blacklight]

Yep, well if the AH-1Zs come, then we know that this time it wasn't Pakistan's fault (license denial). I reckon the Army will try slipping mmWs with the AH-1Zs, and then circle back to the Z-10ME in larger numbers.

The MMW's are coming IA, I just hope they have the Version 6 upgrades, which increases the range of the radar as well as Hellfire by 100%

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...hunting-capabilities-in-august/138363.article

 

[Blacklight]

Lynx were part of the Type 21 deal and not a PN Choice.
The spares were way too expensive in order to maintain 3 aircraft with not any real capability.

Hence the decision to replace them with Z-9 was taken.

How is the Z-9 in terms of performance and reliability?