Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[Killswitch]

I find it interesting the PAF is opting for Il 76/78 over US alternatives.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yes they are BVR capable.

Discussed on this forum.

Its grifo MG radar of f-7s has 35 km approx against 5m^2 target,how will it use BVR missiles?

I find it interesting the PAF is opting for Il 76/78 over US alternatives.

Cheaper,no sanctions as china can supply parts underhand.

 

[SQ8]

Its grifo MG radar of f-7s has 35 km approx against 5m^2 target,how will it use BVR missiles?



Cheaper,no sanctions as china can supply parts underhand.

Its not about making the missile work with the radar.. its about the need to make it work.
The radar is capable of locking onto and providing tracking and targeting data to a missile.. basic software work.
The F-7PG squadrons practice BVR engagements in training at their 30 km range which is still BVR.. but in operational scenario's they wont be carrying the weapon because their tactics are focused on getting into WVR as quickly and undetected as possible.

 

[Salman Ahmad]

My Advise to PAF, sell old aircraft's 200 F7, 40 A5, 100 Mirage............get some $$$ and try to get 50 J10.

A small but strong fleet is batter then a large and weak fleet.

century old jets those are flying because of paf technicians hard work and pac giving them spares do u think any fool will buy them ?????

 

[Salman Ahmad]

No mate you are still out of picture, you are talking as if the JFT programme has been curtailed and production terminated.
Look a little closer to home, while the LCA hasn't been even inducted, there's a talk of LCA Mk-2.
While around 50 JFT have already been produced with majority of them operational in squadron service, the Mk-2 is already in the pipeline and there's even rumours of beyond. If funds were so scarce, additional AWACS would be the last option, on another note, Pakistan working on it's own war doctorine, has also been investing in conventional missile for stand off capability to off set the Indian numerical advantage. !!

All of them are operational now

 

[notorious_eagle]

Most important fact from article JF-17 numbers from 275 to 150.Coupled with 63 f-16s this leaves PAF with a 210 odd force.No AESA radars,no HOBS WVR.

You are still discounting F7PG's and ROSE Mirages, they are still very capable platforms especially for the roles they have been assigned too. PAF is focusing on data-linking every asset through a central grid connected with AWACS and Ground Radars, thus negating the need of individual AESA radars. Plans are already in motion to procure HOBS missiles, it will take time to materialize.

So PAF will have 3 f-16 squadrons plus 8 squadrons of jf-17.A 11-12 squadron force.Sufficient for limited deterrence,grossly insufficient for making any 2 front mischief with the limited attack ability of jf-17.
Our projected sukhoi fleet of 15 squadrons alone can sufficiently deal with this reduced threat,leaving us to concentrate more squadrons on the N-eastern border.
Our 3 mig-29 UPG squadrons[all of which are deployed west] and 3 mirage-2000 upg squadrons will add to this.

PAF can never match IAF in terms of numbers, if it comes down to a war of attrition the IAF will prevail due to superior resources. According to the Indian military doctrine, PAF needs to hold the IAF at bay for 2-3 weeks. PAF is perfectly suited and armed to achieve that task because any war lasting more than 2-3 weeks is crossing the nuclear threshold.

2nd imp fact,PAF hasn't had any new long range SAMs yet,So FT-2000 deal didn't go through as of yet.

It has already been leaked online on this forum that PAF is in possession of HQ-9's. And PAF is not looking for FT-2000, it is looking at HQ-18's to augment the existing AD Network.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You are still discounting F7PG's and ROSE Mirages, they are still very capable platforms especially for the roles they have been assigned too. PAF is focusing on data-linking every asset through a central grid connected with AWACS and Ground Radars, thus negating the need of individual AESA radars. Plans are already in motion to procure HOBS missiles, it will take time to materialize.



PAF can never match IAF in terms of numbers, if it comes down to a war of attrition the IAF will prevail due to superior resources. According to the Indian military doctrine, PAF needs to hold the IAF at bay for 2-3 weeks. PAF is perfectly suited and armed to achieve that task because any war lasting more than 2-3 weeks is crossing the nuclear threshold.



It has already been leaked online on this forum that PAF is in possession of HQ-9's. And PAF is not looking for FT-2000, it is looking at HQ-18's to augment the existing AD Network.

1]Ok,i'm not as much expert on this,I'll get back to this point when i get answer from some experts on the question,does Datalink with AWACS make AESA radars completely unnecessary?I left out older platforms as they are going out anyway and be replaced by thunders.

2]More or less agree with what u say,only 2 things -can a pure air war [say originating from surgical attempt to bomb terror camps if PA controlled taliban are redirected against IA in kashmir or make another massacre like mumbai] without any attempt to gain territory cross nuclear threshold?Almost impossible.
And lower numbers of PAF squadrons means IAF has to keep lower numbers in the west to maintain balance and can deploy vast squadrons in NE in case of problems with china.

3]Yes its been said on the forum that pakistan has hq-9,but this article says only crotale replacement has been procured,no long range sams.Hence my query.

 

[SQ8]

You are still discounting F7PG's and ROSE Mirages, they are still very capable platforms especially for the roles they have been assigned too. PAF is focusing on data-linking every asset through a central grid connected with AWACS and Ground Radars, thus negating the need of individual AESA radars. Plans are already in motion to procure HOBS missiles, it will take time to materialize.

HOBS heaters along with HMS already in operation on F-7PG's and small numbers of other assets(other than the JHCMS on the F-16s)

1]Ok,i'm not as much expert on this,I'll get back to this point when i get answer from some experts on the question,does Datalink with AWACS make AESA radars completely unnecessary?I left out older platforms as they are going out anyway and be replaced by thunders.

Not at all true.. the only thing it does is that it balances the Situational Awareness against an AESA equipped enemy who may be in LPI mode. Or, it provides target tracking to allow the Pilot to maintain an idea of the situation if they are unable to get a lock due to either the AESA radar jamming them or otherwise.

The AESA radar may not always get first look, but it will quite likely always get first lock in a standoff engagement.

Also, make sure whatever experts you look for.. Do not quote Carlo Kopp overly or otherwise and are of western decent... Objectivity fails outside of those.

 

[Gentelman]

Though if I were russia just as WS13 is going to be inducted I would offer the uprated RD93 just to make PAF think. engine sales are a big business and 100 engines cannot be better than 5-600.
Araz
.

there should also be a factor of trust and using chineese engine will create ease in having upgradation and overhaul facality at home…

 

[notorious_eagle]

1]Ok,i'm not as much expert on this,I'll get back to this point when i get answer from some experts on the question,does Datalink with AWACS make AESA radars completely unnecessary?I left out older platforms as they are going out anyway and be replaced by thunders.

Oscar answered that pretty well. Just to add a bit, you need an AESA radar operating under hostile dense EW environment carrying out a long range strike inside enemy territory.

2]More or less agree with what u say,only 2 things -can a pure air war [say originating from surgical attempt to bomb terror camps if PA controlled taliban are redirected against IA in kashmir or make another massacre like mumbai] without any attempt to gain territory cross nuclear threshold?Almost impossible.

Thats at best punitive strikes, nothing to gain or show for unless putting boots on the ground. NATO conducted 30 days of severe aerial bombardment before the commencement of Desert Storm and Iraqi C&C was still in intact. If India can fire 50 cruise missiles, Pakistan can fire equal amount of missiles too. There is no limit to the level of escalation, both sides can launch punitive strikes against each other and cause severe damage to each other's infrastructure. If IAF does manage to shoot down 40 PAF planes, it will stiill be retreating at the end of the day and PAF can claim it beat off an IAF invasion claiming a propaganda victory.

And lower numbers of PAF squadrons means IAF has to keep lower numbers in the west to maintain balance and can deploy vast squadrons in NE in case of problems with china.

It has to, even if PAF has increased numbers India needs at-least 3 squadrons to protect its flank against China. Great Militaries operate not under the assumption of what the enemy will do, but what the enemy can do.

3]Yes its been said on the forum that pakistan has hq-9,but this article says only crotale replacement has been procured,no long range sams.Hence my query.

The defence capabilities of Pakistan are a huge grey area, they are never revealed in the public. If an insider discloses it, than so be it or else it is always kept hidden. You have no idea how paranoid these guys are, they will put the most paranoid person in the world to shame.

HOBS heaters along with HMS already in operation on F-7PG's and small numbers of other assets(other than the JHCMS on the F-16s)

Thanks for pointing that out, the Piranha's and PL5-II are indeed a good addition. I should have been more clearer, PAF's intentions of acquiring 5th Generation WVR HOBS solution.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

It has to, even if PAF has increased numbers India needs at-least 3 squadrons to protect its flank against China. Great Militaries operate not under the assumption of what the enemy will do, but what the enemy can do.

Didn't get what u mean?Explain,what 3 squadrons?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Didn't get what u mean?Explain,what 3 squadrons?

Strength of 3 Squadrons at-least to pose a credible threat to the PLAF.

 

[Nishan_101]

For your own good, I only hope the PAF high command doesn't plan it's strategy like you do.

"If this happens... if that happens..." will get you nowhere.

AFAIK, PLAAF still uses AL-31FNs on J-10Bs (WS-10 only appears on a FEW prototypes, same as J-15
carrier-borne plane, where WS-10 is there only on 2 planes).

Has PAF really evaluated the WS-13 as yet? From what I know it's still in development, with an
extremely low TBO rating on the prototype (source: last Zhuhai air show; I can give you a link if you
want).

WS-13 will be an option only after 2018 IMO. You do need an MRO facility to maintain them locally,
or atleast China must have it, so that they can service them for you. Sending the engines
to Russia everytime not only costs bigger money but also takes more time, than when compared to
China. Not recommended at all, especially in wartime.

I'm only trying to highlight the things where PAF can save a buck or two by making a clever move.

Whether J-10 comes with WS-10 or AL-31 makes no difference because every engine needs to be
serviced (WS-10 needs more maintenance, more frequently than AL-31FN).

We are in mid-2013 now, even if PAF signs up for 36 x FC-20s right away, still they won't arrive
by 2014. The Chinese production line is experiencing some glitches whatsoever.



Extract from Combat Aircraft Monthly February 2013 issue.

Going for more F-16s is indeed the best approach from my POV.

I am sure that PAF is not looking in to J-10B now. There main focus will be the JF-17 Block-IIs along with development of 5th Generation with China....

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Strength of 3 Squadrons at-least to pose a credible threat to the PLAF.

I don't think 3 squadrons will be anywhere near enough.Around 20 would be excellent for air superiorityas PLAAF can at once field around 16 sq max on indo border but with load and performance restrictions due to altitude,what i meant was that with PAF previous strength of 25 odd squadrons would have stretched IAF thin as IAF would have to retain many squadrons in the west,with reduced squadron strength of 12-15 sq IAF can simultaneously field many sq in east in 2 front scenario without being stretched to breaking point.

 

[Nishan_101]

Although best would be for PAC to look in to:
Further Development and Production of JF-17s, K-8s and super Mushak.
Also they can look in to doing JV with France, Italy, Germany and UK in Avionics...