Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[GR!FF!N]

You're thinking of the J-11B, which was rejected. The J-10B is still on the table, but may be delayed due to a) lack of mature high quality Chinese engines, unless Russia doesn't object to the AL-31 engines on the J-10B going to Pakistan, b) the lack of a strong economy may force Pakistan to cut the budget of the air force (which has already happened symbolically).

I don't remember any talk about J-11B ever happened.it was J-10B and pakistani members are claiming that due to cash crunch,this deal was stalled,which you've mentioned..I'd be happy if Pakistan pursue J-10B than making J-17 its front line fighter.it may make JF-17 as the backbone,but as front line???come on...and yes,engine is a issue(even now).while chinese posters are claiming that engine production is up and running etc etc,but the fact is still engine is the point of concern.

 

[fatman17]

I don't remember any talk about J-11B ever happened.it was J-10B and pakistani members are claiming that due to cash crunch,this deal was stalled,which you've mentioned..I'd be happy if Pakistan pursue J-10B than making J-17 its front line fighter.it may make JF-17 as the backbone,but as front line???come on...and yes,engine is a issue(even now).while chinese posters are claiming that engine production is up and running etc etc,but the fact is still engine is the point of concern.

yes the chinese engine is still a few years away from mass production. J-10B and JFT are 2 different categories of aircraft. each will have a different role in the PAF once inducted.

 

[That Guy]

I don't remember any talk about J-11B ever happened.it was J-10B and pakistani members are claiming that due to cash crunch,this deal was stalled,which you've mentioned..I'd be happy if Pakistan pursue J-10B than making J-17 its front line fighter.it may make JF-17 as the backbone,but as front line???come on...and yes,engine is a issue(even now).while chinese posters are claiming that engine production is up and running etc etc,but the fact is still engine is the point of concern.

The J-11b was offered to Pakistan by China, but was rejected as Pakistan traditionally uses single engine fighters (though that may be changing), regardless, you're right; The deal has probably stalled for multiple reasons, two of which I mentioned.

The JF-17 is meant to be the backbone, the F-16 is our first line of defence.

The engines are a great concern, but the Chinese members are correct when they say that the engine production has ramped up. The problem is quality control, and maturity of the engines; both of which aren't actually mutually exclusive. The Chinese are aggressively pushing ahead to get flight hours into their engines, so they can test them at levels that are considered acceptable, and are making steady and significant progress. I do, however, think that it will be some years away before China can officially say and have evidence that their engines are just as good as Russian, if not better.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The J-11b was offered to Pakistan by China, but was rejected as Pakistan traditionally uses single engine fighters (though that may be changing), regardless, you're right; The deal has probably stalled for multiple reasons, two of which I mentioned.

The JF-17 is meant to be the backbone, the F-16 is our first line of defence.

The engines are a great concern, but the Chinese members are correct when they say that the engine production has ramped up. The problem is quality control, and maturity of the engines; both of which aren't actually mutually exclusive. The Chinese are aggressively pushing ahead to get flight hours into their engines, so they can test them at levels that are considered acceptable, and are making steady and significant progress. I do, however, think that it will be some years away before China can officially say and have evidence that their engines are just as good as Russian, if not better.

Chinese engines have 2 primary drawbacks,though they can produce about same thrust,the time taken in flight to increase thrust or 'sploosh' necessary for acceleration is much slower,this affects fighter combat performance and acceleration time.Most damaging though is that they require maintainence after very short periods compared to russian engines.For examples ws-10 required maintainence after 30 hrs of flying compared to 400 russian AL-31f.The main part of the engine that is impossible to properly copy are the turbine blades.

 

[That Guy]

Chinese engines have 2 primary drawbacks,though they can produce about same thrust,the time taken in flight to increase thrust or 'sploosh' necessary for acceleration is much slower,this affects fighter combat performance and acceleration time.Most damaging though is that they require maintainence after very short periods compared to russian engines.For examples ws-10 required maintainence after 30 hrs of flying compared to 400 russian AL-31f.The main part of the engine that is impossible to properly copy are the turbine blades.

All of this can be addressed by putting in hours into the engines, and doing extensive quality control tests. Turbine blades are the main issue, without proper quality control of turbine blades, the engines are unreliable at best, useless at worst.

 

[SQ8]

properly copy are the turbine blades.

Copying, designing etc.. down to the micron are relatively easy. What is not NOT easy is the manufacture of the alloy that goes into those blades as you may even find the composition..but you wont find out how that is manufactured. Its like the KFC recipe.. you know there's chicken and these different spices in there.. you just cant tell how it was mixed and cooked into that form.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Copying, designing etc.. down to the micron are relatively easy. What is not NOT easy is the manufacture of the alloy that goes into those blades as you may even find the composition..but you wont find out how that is manufactured. Its like the KFC recipe.. you know there's chicken and these different spices in there.. you just cant tell how it was mixed and cooked into that form.

I think it is the cutting of the blade from a single crystal lattice that is holding up both Indian and the Chinese brethren from making it.

 

[rockstarIN]

Copying, designing etc.. down to the micron are relatively easy. What is not NOT easy is the manufacture of the alloy that goes into those blades as you may even find the composition..but you wont find out how that is manufactured. Its like the KFC recipe.. you know there's chicken and these different spices in there.. you just cant tell how it was mixed and cooked into that form.

Trail and error method might yield more good composition thus much more flying hours.

 

[Bamboo Castle]

I heard the J-10 deal is cancelled. But I am seeing otherwise very often. Can anyone enlighten us about the facts?
Also, 150 JF-17 is not enough to replace those Mirages and F-7s from services. Sounds more like Mirages and F-7 and JF-17 will fly side by side...

 

[ziaulislam]

I heard the J-10 deal is cancelled. But I am seeing otherwise very often. Can anyone enlighten us about the facts?
Also, 150 JF-17 is not enough to replace those Mirages and F-7s from services. Sounds more like Mirages and F-7 and JF-17 will fly side by side...

PAF will reduce its numbers to 320-350 at best. So i around 150-200 thunders and 100 odd F-16s/J-10B will be enough. 50 odd F-7Pg or rose Upgrage mirages may be maintained a little longer

 

[jamesseo89]

I am sure from 2014 we might be able to do 25-35 JF-17 Block-IIs along with 15 Dual seats ones. INSHA ALLAH

So it may fill up the PAF requirements of about 100 JF-17 Block-IIs single and dual, also about 45-50 JF-17 Block-IIs Dual seats for CSS. Just we all need Prayers for that too.

 

[Side-Winder]

Read properly next time. What that says is the complete opposite of what you are claiming. JF-17 is based on PT-04, not PT-03. And that's an old 2007 article. See your latest IDEAS board. Your precious JF-17's speed is only Mach 1.6.

* Empty Weight - 6586 kgs / 14520 lbs
* Engine Thrust
- Emergency takeoff Thrust - 8700 kgf / 19200 lbf
- Afterburner Thrust - 8300 kgf / 18300 lbf
* Radar Range(Detection) - 75 km for 3m2 target or 85km for 5m2(Prasun claims 105km for 5m2 target, same as the F-16 Block-52's radar range. Unlikely.)
* Speed - Mach 1.6

This is the press release by chief designer at dubai airshow! no more need to discuss it anymore -- clearly mentions 1.8 mach -- empty weight 6411 kg -- the one board on IDEAS may have taken info from PAC official website which has not been updated since long --

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7tuiaeS_kc[/video]

 

[Side-Winder]

SELF DELETE

 

[Donatello]

Read properly next time. What that says is the complete opposite of what you are claiming. JF-17 is based on PT-04, not PT-03. And that's an old 2007 article. See your latest IDEAS board. Your precious JF-17's speed is only Mach 1.6.

* Empty Weight - 6586 kgs / 14520 lbs
* Engine Thrust
- Emergency takeoff Thrust - 8700 kgf / 19200 lbf
- Afterburner Thrust - 8300 kgf / 18300 lbf
* Radar Range(Detection) - 75 km for 3m2 target or 85km for 5m2(Prasun claims 105km for 5m2 target, same as the F-16 Block-52's radar range. Unlikely.)
* Speed - Mach 1.6

I suggest that you go through the JF-17 Information pool thread and the JF-17 thread here. Some senior members have spent a great amount of their personal time to update the information there. Don't come here and post if you don't know anything. Otherwise you will be seeing the pink slip very soon. It is very disrespectful to other members on the forum if you keep parroting the same non-sense again.