Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[SQ8]

My Advise to PAF, sell old aircraft's 200 F7, 40 A5, 100 Mirage............get some $$$ and try to get 50 J10.

A small but strong fleet is batter then a large and weak fleet.

To whom? You will have to sell 5 mirages(maybe more at their present state) to get a single JF-17.

The PAF decided this outcome way back in 2010.. which was the 150 JF-17's plus 70 odd F-16s.. anything else comes later.

 

[Manticore]

According to some chinese media the new improved WS-10B has a 135KN of thrust, FADEC and is more realiable than WS-10A. It currently power the J-16 prototypes and will power the J-15 , J-10B and J-16.



ûÓÐÈËתÂð£¬À´×ÔCD΢²© J16´øPL10Æð·É£¡ÏÖÒѾ*ÑݱäΪ̫ÐÐÌÖÂÛÌù-µÚ29Ò³-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛ̳-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛ̳ -

吉林★老树皮(535429742) 14:40:38
因J16的良好状态，军方才紧急插入J11C/D 的研制计划
吉林★老树皮(535429742) 14:41:41
J16头几架用的是太行，不是太行改，太行改要晚一些时候才能批产
吉林★老树皮(535429742) 14:43:07
太行改及海太行，135KN
数字电调，太行终于熬出头了

 

[senkakudefender]

Bro i was referring to the article in which headline sayas that Pakistan may speed up its procurement but in details it says That JF17 number will be reduced..

But you took it to some other direction...Listen procuring something from Russia is more China Russia matter rather then Pakistan Russia matter.. India can block PAKISTAN from getting equipment from russia but cannot stop China.. however now geo political situation is changing..Russian aaircheif visit to pakistan may be a sign towards it..

Per unit cost alone of j 10 is something beyond PAF's target. Regarding china getting Russian tech Russians have already stopped direct rd 93 sales as they think this will compete with mig 29. China has the ability to make almost all engine parts but still can't master blade fan tech. that's why 50 bn $ is allocated for research. From economic POV such freebies will mean loss.

Russia knows India is a reliable partner unlike China who STEALS tech. If they pull out US will suck up to us for F 35 and FYI we were making stealth composites and mission computers for FGFA so they roll red carpet for insider tech we'll bring.

BUT That's stupid as Russia instead behaves like drunk Bear as it is losing IAF deals. Any such move will seal fate of this cycle.

Read Article : Russia hints at unease with India - Indian Express

Indicating unease over India's growing closeness with the US, Russia today said it does not "feel comfortable" at being put on the same plane as New Delhi's "newly-acquired partners" who had earlier imposed sanctions on this country.

Russian Ambassador Alexander M Kadakin reminded how his country had always stood by India as the closest friend and underlined that the two countries are in "greater need of each other" in the "strikingly new world".

Maintaining that "our relations are special after all", he said at an event here that, "We sincerely regard India as our closest and best friend".

 

[Windjammer]

Also you are forgetting that a MASSIVE COMPROMISE has already been made by PAF.

Even as per the article in OP, the JF-17 numbers were slashed from 275 to 150, a reduction of almost 50% from previous figure.

Keep in mind that when PAF originally wanted 275 JF-17s, they ALREADY KNEW that IAF was going for MKIs in numbers of 200+. But in the end, IAF ended up with 270+ MKIs on order while PAF ended with just enough money to buy 150.

Get the picture?

No mate you are still out of picture, you are talking as if the JFT programme has been curtailed and production terminated.
Look a little closer to home, while the LCA hasn't been even inducted, there's a talk of LCA Mk-2.
While around 50 JFT have already been produced with majority of them operational in squadron service, the Mk-2 is already in the pipeline and there's even rumours of beyond. If funds were so scarce, additional AWACS would be the last option, on another note, Pakistan working on it's own war doctorine, has also been investing in conventional missile for stand off capability to off set the Indian numerical advantage. !!

 

[Gessler]

No mate you are still out of picture, you are talking as if the JFT programme has been curtailed and production terminated.
Look a little closer to home, while the LCA hasn't been even inducted, there's a talk of LCA Mk-2.
While around 50 JFT have already been produced with majority of them operational in squadron service, the Mk-2 is already in the pipeline and there's even rumours of beyond. If funds were so scarce, additional AWACS would be the last option, on another note, Pakistan working on it's own war doctorine, has also been investing in conventional missile for stand off capability to off set the Indian numerical advantage. !!

I am out of picture

1) Is LCA even needed to fight JFT when MKIs are already available in superior numbers? (Although I won't complain if you say JFT is not worth fighting MKI)

2) Are you even trying to understand the situation? Just the other day, PAF had abandoned it's plans to modernize/re-equip the air force by 2025 due to lack of funds. Do you know what
this means? Isn't it completely OBVIOUS that many of PAF's previously sorted plans are in ruin?

It does not matter if JFT is block-1 or 2, it was anticipated when the economic situation was better than now, and still, every plane can be modified/scrapped as time demands it. But however
none of this changes the fact that the planned number of JFTs in only reducing, not increasing!

It was 275-300 once, then became 250, then cut further to 150 now. Who knows it may be slashed to just 100 or less in future? I don't see any betterment on that front, sorry!

And btw, look at the IAF - our acquisition plans are only increasing, unlike yours.

1) Originally there were 140 MKIs to be bought, now the number is 270+.
2) Originally the competeion was for 126 jets, now there is strong negotiation going on to add another 63 to the order.

AND note: the increase in orders is not only true for jets fighters but also helicopters, transports, AWACS, refuellers etc. etc. which are just as vitally important to a nation's war effort as much as fighters.

There's no changing the fact that we can (and will/are) afford much better, much more, than you.

And please don't even try to obtain parity, because in this hopeless game of catch-up, you
will nicely deplete whatever little financial resources you have available.

No mate you are still out of picture, you are talking as if the JFT programme has been curtailed and production terminated.
Look a little closer to home, while the LCA hasn't been even inducted, there's a talk of LCA Mk-2.
While around 50 JFT have already been produced with majority of them operational in squadron service, the Mk-2 is already in the pipeline and there's even rumours of beyond. If funds were so scarce, additional AWACS would be the last option, on another note, Pakistan working on it's own war doctorine, has also been investing in conventional missile for stand off capability to off set the Indian numerical advantage. !!

And I almost forgot...why do you keep bringing up the Block-2 of JFT?

Are you unaware of the fact that even our MKIs are due to undergo upgrade to Super-Sukhoi which
will have technologies originally developed for the PAK-FA?

 

[slapshot]

Per unit cost alone of j 10 is something beyond PAF's target.

You people seriously need to get rid of this price tag mentality. BTW PAF main focus is JFT at the moment.

Russia knows India is a reliable partner unlike China who STEALS tech.

Actually Russia knows india is unable to copy/produce the stuff they sale to them which makes them good customer since they will be dependent. China is smart and since they know they can create the similar technology at home why should they give away the money You can't really stop technology from being copied by others just look around you this is whats happening all over the world. If you people are not doing it then either you are stupid or you simply don't have the abilites to do it.

BUT That's stupid as Russia instead behaves like drunk Bear as it is losing IAF deals. Any such move will seal fate of this cycle.

Read Article : Russia hints at unease with India - Indian Express

Indicating unease over India's growing closeness with the US, Russia today said it does not "feel comfortable" at being put on the same plane as New Delhi's "newly-acquired partners" who had earlier imposed sanctions on this country.

Russian Ambassador Alexander M Kadakin reminded how his country had always stood by India as the closest friend and underlined that the two countries are in "greater need of each other" in the "strikingly new world".

Maintaining that "our relations are special after all", he said at an event here that, "We sincerely regard India as our closest and best friend".

In international politics there are no permanent friends and relationships depend upon interests. If India will make deals by skipping the russians then obviously they will not be happy. At the end of the day they need to sell their stuff. If you are not going to buy from them then they will go to some one else In past they approved the sale of RD93 egines to pakistan regardless of the indian pressure. You may get more surprises now that ice is melting between two counteries.

 

[Donatello]

makes sense really, having no regional designs and continued peace progress with India means that defense spending can be reduced

It can be reduced, but we cannot trust Indians. We just can't

 

[SQ8]

It can be reduced, but we cannot trust Indians. We just can't

Considering that they collectively feel the same way about us, its simply a cycle that cannot end one sided.

 

[muse]

You people seriously need to get rid of this price tag mentality.:

Amen to that ---

 

[araz]

THEN WHAT R U SAYIN? Jf 17 is the only fighter you guys are banking on along with f16s. First China needs Russian approval then only it can sell. How will you fly it then w/o engines. RD 93 china has 100s and can help you out there for jf 17s although as gessler said maintainance and servicing remains.

You guys need to prioritize your buys and practice diplomacy. Days of freebies are over in economic recession. Instead investing some of the funds available into economy will get you dividends in 10 yrs. By then situation may stabilize and economy may be cool and you can get j 20s even.

JFT is going to be our mainstay. We need to get the next block sorted and this wohld be the priority as far as I am concerned. we also need medium range and long range ground to air missiles which are fast becoming a desperate requirement.The reason why we dont require a1:1 replacement of the F7 & M3/5s is the enhanced capability that comes with the newer platforms. However unless WS13 is coming in the near future PAF WILL try and procure overhauling facilities for RD93. Ifully agree that it would be stupid to rely on Russia.As far as J10B is concerned I dont think it will come with a non chinese engine. This is all the more impirtant as Chinese progress in this matter is impressive.
Araz
U

 

[araz]

no need of such MRO facility because J-10 is going to use WS-10 as it is in PAF requirements for FC-20 and progress for JF-17 chineese engine(WS-13) is also underway……
atleast we can expect it in working cond. in mid of block 2
about FC-20 their official inductions were to start from 2014 when the agreement for 36 aircraft was signed if the chineese would be able to meet PAF requirements…
well PAF can't hold much longer for J-10Bs if they were not available then maybe we can expect a deal for 18 F-16s D around 2015-16 because at present there is no other option rather than China and US…
well if Rafael deal of IAF is scrapped then maybe we can expect it around 36 in numbers but its coast is really conserning for.PAF to slect it……

Though if I were russia just as WS13 is going to be inducted I would offer the uprated RD93 just to make PAF think. engine sales are a big business and 100 engines cannot be better than 5-600.
Araz

To whom? You will have to sell 5 mirages(maybe more at their present state) to get a single JF-17.

The PAF decided this outcome way back in 2010.. which was the 150 JF-17's plus 70 odd F-16s.. anything else comes later.

The same way we sold F86s sothey could be converted into pans.

 

[GR!FF!N]

I think PAF should bank on more capable jet as their mainstay/front line jet.dunno the specs of block 2,but current Block-1 specs aren't too impressed.yes,Pakistan is going to buy more F-16s.but even then,they need more front line jets,not present block 1 JF-17s to keep their qualitative edge.J-10B might have been a good choice,around 100 of them will serve better alongside JF-17s.but only handful of F-16s are simply not good enough,especially when PAF is decreasing their fleet size significantly.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No mate you are still out of picture, you are talking as if the JFT programme has been curtailed and production terminated.
Look a little closer to home, while the LCA hasn't been even inducted, there's a talk of LCA Mk-2.
While around 50 JFT have already been produced with majority of them operational in squadron service, the Mk-2 is already in the pipeline and there's even rumours of beyond. If funds were so scarce, additional AWACS would be the last option, on another note, Pakistan working on it's own war doctorine, has also been investing in conventional missile for stand off capability to off set the Indian numerical advantage. !!

Comparing the LCA to the JF-17 has been done to death. Either way it is irrelevant- the Thunder is going to be the mainstay/backbone of the PAF, the LCA is not going to be the mainstay/backbone of the IAF. Whilst the IAF can afford delays (within reason) to the LCA, the PAF cannot afford such delays to the Thunder or later blocks. In the next decade the IAF is certain to induct at least 3 different types of new fighters (LCA, FGFA, Rafale),the PAF, right now, is only going to be inducting 1 (JF-17).


It is a common diversionary tactic to just resort to LCA-bashing but as I've just proved it equates to nothing.

 

[araz]

I think PAF should bank on more capable jet as their mainstay/front line jet.dunno the specs of block 2,but current Block-1 specs aren't too impressed.yes,Pakistan is going to buy more F-16s.but even then,they need more front line jets,not present block 1 JF-17s to keep their qualitative edge.J-10B might have been a good choice,around 100 of them will serve better alongside JF-17s.but only handful of F-16s are simply not good enough,especially when PAF is decreasing their fleet size significantly.

These are just your thoughts and you are welcome to them. They have no bearing on reality. PAF has designed a plane according to its own requirements which according to multiple inside andoutside sources and reports is exceedingits expectations and you dont find it impressive. More power to you. By the way knowing Pakistan and its dire financial conditions and the threat of sanctions from the US everlooming overits head,where should we go for replacement of our archaic fleet?
Araz

 

[GR!FF!N]

These are just your thoughts and you are welcome to them. They have no bearing on reality. PAF has designed a plane according to its own requirements which according to multiple inside andoutside sources and reports is exceedingits expectations and you dont find it impressive. More power to you. By the way knowing Pakistan and its dire financial conditions and the threat of sanctions from the US everlooming overits head,where should we go for replacement of our archaic fleet?
Araz

sorry bro..but I hardly find anywhere in international media,anybody found JF-17 exceeding expectation.and no doubt about PAF's specification,on which it was built.but then again,its economy which came as a spoiler.also,wrong prioritization is to blame.while Pakistan is increasing its strategic and nuclear assets,its conventional forces are suffering,which actually is going to be used most possibly,not strategic assets(missiles,nukes etc).and USA's sanctions were not the threat of Pakistan when it ordered more and more F-16 Block 52s.they even gifted few F-16s free of cost.yes,JF-17s are a passable jet with a weak radar and some amount of BVR capability,but PAF is missing the number of frontline jets which will have the capability for future possible encounter with IAF jets(if ever).I can't think any more sorry period of PAF than now,struggling for number as well as capable jets.and mind you,I said to bank J-10B,not F-16.if USA's sanction comes,if ever,you guys have to ground more than just F-16s.what I feel is that PAF should prioritize block II's development and make it a capable jet unlike block I.