Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[Gessler]

Lean ,mean , hard hitting machine.
PAF has always perused quality rather than quantity.....since JF-17 can perform and execute three battlefield missions as an interceptor, fighter/bomber and maritime strike, hence it can replace three dedicated version of Mirages namely IIIEP, VPA/2/3 respectively.....somewhat like the EF Typhoon has replaced the Phantom, Jaguars and some Tornado squadrons in the RAF.

There is no comparison between PAF and RAF, both have waaaaay different operational requirements.

The reason for Typhoon to replace so many fighters (ending up with a much smaller force than before) was because of the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the massive Soviet air force
threat that loomed all over Typhoon's development phase.

Remember Typhoon was made to be a pure air superiority fighter at first, the multirole capability was added AFTER the collapse of the Communist threat, which saw massive force-reduction on the Russian side with far lesser power projection ability than before.

In Pakistan's case, the reason for a single fighter to replace multiple types/variants of previous age fighters is because of Pakistan's own depleting financial resources.

IAF force levels are only going to rise in future, adding both quality AND quantity.

The only thing that can counter quality + quantity is quality and quality itself. Since acquiring the same number of fighters with the same capabilities as IAF cannot be sustained by Pak's
economic situation, a compromise was made.

Sacrificing quantity for a smaller force of slightly more qualitative (or to be precise; newer) product.

If a $514 billion economy (PPP terms) has to hold it's own against a $4.68 trillion economy, a compromise HAS to be made, and it WAS made. No need to try to believe that nothing was lost
and everything was gained.

JF-17 may be able to do more roles than outgoing models, but just 150 planes doing the work of 300+ outgoing planes is a bit too far-fetched. Especially when the enemy is adding
better quality planes in higher numbers on their side.

There is going to be a PAF force reduction of around approx. 45-50% in the coming years.

 

[shanixee]

THEN WHAT R U SAYIN? Jf 17 is the only fighter you guys are banking on along with f16s. First China needs Russian approval then only it can sell. How will you fly it then w/o engines. RD 93 china has 100s and can help you out there for jf 17s although as gessler said maintainance and servicing remains.

You guys need to prioritize your buys and practice diplomacy. Days of freebies are over in economic recession. Instead investing some of the funds available into economy will get you dividends in 10 yrs. By then situation may stabilize and economy may be cool and you can get j 20s even.

Bro i was referring to the article in which headline sayas that Pakistan may speed up its procurement but in details it says That JF17 number will be reduced..

But you took it to some other direction...Listen procuring something from Russia is more China Russia matter rather then Pakistan Russia matter.. India can block PAKISTAN from getting equipment from russia but cannot stop China.. however now geo political situation is changing..Russian aaircheif visit to pakistan may be a sign towards it..

 

[Gentelman]

I am waiting to see some solid progress on J-10B/FC-20 deal, which has not come so far.

Unless Pakistan goes into emergency stage with very little money available, the FC-20 deal will
certainly get through. @senkakudefender Leave the AL-31s aside, what is more important is
getting an MRO facility for the existing numbers of RD-93s in Pakistan, or in China atleast!

It is neither safe nor economical to send the engines to Russia everytime and back.

no need of such MRO facility because J-10 is going to use WS-10 as it is in PAF requirements for FC-20 and progress for JF-17 chineese engine(WS-13) is also underway……
atleast we can expect it in working cond. in mid of block 2
about FC-20 their official inductions were to start from 2014 when the agreement for 36 aircraft was signed if the chineese would be able to meet PAF requirements…
well PAF can't hold much longer for J-10Bs if they were not available then maybe we can expect a deal for 18 F-16s D around 2015-16 because at present there is no other option rather than China and US…
well if Rafael deal of IAF is scrapped then maybe we can expect it around 36 in numbers but its coast is really conserning for.PAF to slect it……

 

[Windjammer]

There is no comparison between PAF and RAF, both have waaaaay different operational requirements.

The reason for Typhoon to replace so many fighters (ending up with a much smaller force than before) was because of the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the massive Soviet air force
threat that loomed all over Typhoon's development phase.

Remember Typhoon was made to be a pure air superiority fighter at first, the multirole capability was added AFTER the collapse of the Communist threat, which saw massive force-reduction on the Russian side with far lesser power projection ability than before.

In Pakistan's case, the reason for a single fighter to replace multiple types/variants of previous age fighters is because of Pakistan's own depleting financial resources.

IAF force levels are only going to rise in future, adding both quality AND quantity.

The only thing that can counter quality + quantity is quality and quality itself. Since acquiring the same number of fighters with the same capabilities as IAF cannot be sustained by Pak's
economic situation, a compromise was made.

Sacrificing quantity for a smaller force of slightly more qualitative (or to be precise; newer) product.

If a $514 billion economy (PPP terms) has to hold it's own against a $4.68 trillion economy, a compromise HAS to be made, and it WAS made. No need to try to believe that nothing was lost
and everything was gained.

JF-17 may be able to do more roles than outgoing models, but just 150 planes doing the work of 300+ outgoing planes is a bit too far-fetched. Especially when the enemy is adding
better quality planes in higher numbers on their side.

There is going to be a PAF force reduction of around approx. 45-50% in the coming years.

T he example wasn't given as a vis-a-vis scenario but just as a figure of speech, however, since you have dragged all into the argument, let me remind you, apart from inducting more MKIs, there's nothing immediate pending in the IAF, the future prospects are for the Rafael and PAK-FA......in the meantime IAF will still be flying the likes of Bison, Jaguars, Fulcrums and Mirage 2k....despite been in service for decades, none of them known for any worthy battle performance/records.....by rough estimates, it'll be at least a few years before any new platforms are in strength with the IAF, regardless, PAF has it's own goals.
Never jump to conclusions otherwise MiG-21s should have been long phased out of the Indian service. !!

 

[Gentelman]

There is no comparison between PAF and RAF, both have waaaaay different operational requirements.

The reason for Typhoon to replace so many fighters (ending up with a much smaller force than before) was because of the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the massive Soviet air force
threat that loomed all over Typhoon's development phase.

Remember Typhoon was made to be a pure air superiority fighter at first, the multirole capability was added AFTER the collapse of the Communist threat, which saw massive force-reduction on the Russian side with far lesser power projection ability than before.

In Pakistan's case, the reason for a single fighter to replace multiple types/variants of previous age fighters is because of Pakistan's own depleting financial resources.

IAF force levels are only going to rise in future, adding both quality AND quantity.

The only thing that can counter quality + quantity is quality and quality itself. Since acquiring the same number of fighters with the same capabilities as IAF cannot be sustained by Pak's
economic situation, a compromise was made.

Sacrificing quantity for a smaller force of slightly more qualitative (or to be precise; newer) product.

If a $514 billion economy (PPP terms) has to hold it's own against a $4.68 trillion economy, a compromise HAS to be made, and it WAS made. No need to try to believe that nothing was lost
and everything was gained.

JF-17 may be able to do more roles than outgoing models, but just 150 planes doing the work of 300+ outgoing planes is a bit too far-fetched. Especially when the enemy is adding
better quality planes in higher numbers on their side.

There is going to be a PAF force reduction of around approx. 45-50% in the coming years.

he just wanted to say that JFT is multirole and give much more then present F-7s & Mairages…
even block 1 gived FBW systed with more greater radar and BVR capability & mach 1.8 speed while with block 2 more improved radar and HMD and digital FBW along with improved avionics and IFR and air to air refulling capability gives PAF the capability they are looking for and about number the present order of JF-17 is 150 till 2018 and is expected to rise further along with block 3 and FC-20 is also going to replace Mairages used for tactical nukes as high tech fighter so numbers can maybe less maybe 1 less squardron…… and present F-16 MLUs will be replaced with F-16 block D……
well about typhoon there is difference in requirements of PAF and British air force requirements……

 

[Gessler]

no need of such MRO facility because J-10 is going to use WS-10 as it is in PAF requirements for FC-20 and progress for JF-17 chineese engine(WS-13) is also underway……
atleast we can expect it in working cond. in mid of block 2
about FC-20 their official inductions were to start from 2014 when the agreement for 36 aircraft was signed if the chineese would be able to meet PAF requirements…
well PAF can't hold much longer for J-10Bs if they were not available then maybe we can expect a deal for 18 F-16s D around 2015-16 because at present there is no other option rather than China and US…
well if Rafael deal of IAF is scrapped then maybe we can expect it around 36 in numbers but its coast is really conserning for.PAF to slect it……

For your own good, I only hope the PAF high command doesn't plan it's strategy like you do.

"If this happens... if that happens..." will get you nowhere.

AFAIK, PLAAF still uses AL-31FNs on J-10Bs (WS-10 only appears on a FEW prototypes, same as J-15
carrier-borne plane, where WS-10 is there only on 2 planes).

Has PAF really evaluated the WS-13 as yet? From what I know it's still in development, with an
extremely low TBO rating on the prototype (source: last Zhuhai air show; I can give you a link if you
want).

WS-13 will be an option only after 2018 IMO. You do need an MRO facility to maintain them locally,
or atleast China must have it, so that they can service them for you. Sending the engines
to Russia everytime not only costs bigger money but also takes more time, than when compared to
China. Not recommended at all, especially in wartime.

I'm only trying to highlight the things where PAF can save a buck or two by making a clever move.

Whether J-10 comes with WS-10 or AL-31 makes no difference because every engine needs to be
serviced (WS-10 needs more maintenance, more frequently than AL-31FN).

We are in mid-2013 now, even if PAF signs up for 36 x FC-20s right away, still they won't arrive
by 2014. The Chinese production line is experiencing some glitches whatsoever.



Extract from Combat Aircraft Monthly February 2013 issue.

Going for more F-16s is indeed the best approach from my POV.

 

[Manindra]

Even our government reduce defence budget if economy growth were low , Good or bad I don't know

 

[Gentelman]

For your own good, I only hope the PAF high command doesn't plan it's strategy like you do.

"If this happens... if that happens..." will get you nowhere.

AFAIK, PLAAF still uses AL-31FNs on J-10Bs (WS-10 only appears on a FEW prototypes, same as J-15
carrier-borne plane, where WS-10 is there only on 2 planes).

Has PAF really evaluated the WS-13 as yet? From what I know it's still in development, with an
extremely low TBO rating on the prototype (source: last Zhuhai air show; I can give you a link if you
want).

WS-13 will be an option only after 2018 IMO. You do need an MRO facility to maintain them locally,
or atleast China must have it, so that they can service them for you. Sending the engines
to Russia everytime not only costs bigger money but also takes more time, than when compared to
China. Not recommended at all, especially in wartime.

I'm only trying to highlight the things where PAF can save a buck or two by making a clever move.

Whether J-10 comes with WS-10 or AL-31 makes no difference because every engine needs to be
serviced (WS-10 needs more maintenance, more frequently than AL-31FN).

We are in mid-2013 now, even if PAF signs up for 36 x FC-20s right away, still they won't arrive
by 2014. The Chinese production line is experiencing some glitches whatsoever.



Extract from Combat Aircraft Monthly February 2013 issue.

Going for more F-16s is indeed the best approach from my POV.

about RD-93 PAF is in talks with Russians for overhaul and maintainance facility and abouy FC-20 **** WS-10…
if WS-10 isn't ready till 2016 then F-16s……
or maybe Rafaels if our kind neighbour scrape that deal with French……
well J-10 engine is turning into nightmare…
the deliveries were expected from 2015 lets hope chineese can figure something out……

 

[Gessler]

T he example wasn't given as a vis-a-vis scenario but just as a figure of speech, however, since you have dragged all into the argument, let me remind you, apart from inducting more MKIs, there's nothing immediate pending in the IAF, the future prospects are for the Rafael and PAK-FA......in the meantime IAF will still be flying the likes of Bison, Jaguars, Fulcrums and Mirage 2k....despite been in service for decades, none of them known for any worthy battle performance/records.....by rough estimates, it'll be at least a few years before any new platforms are in strength with the IAF, regardless, PAF has it's own goals.
Never jump to conclusions otherwise MiG-21s should have been long phased out of the Indian service. !!

But you didn't seem to get my point. There isn't going to be any force-reduction on the IAF side, the
economy will look up to that.

Bisons are BVR capable fighters with reduced RCS levels and better radar/electronic equipment,
the MKI procurement is ongoing with 170-180 inducted and totaling out at 270+, and I'm only
talking about confirmed figures. That's pretty much enough number to hold of 150+65 PAF jets,
and also note the BVR-capable Bisons will stay in service uptill 2017, while JF-17 would have
replaced most F-7s by then, resulting in smaller numbers for PAF.

I shudder to think of battle performance records, I don't believe in records obtained by shooting down
enemy aircraft with no RWR, no MAWS, and sometimes, no radar, as any reliable means to gauge their
performance in war. If still yes, what records in JF-17 known for? Let's not enter into a slug fest.

about RD-93 PAF is in talks with Russians for overhaul and maintainance facility and abouy FC-20 **** WS-10…
if WS-10 isn't ready till 2016 then F-16s……
or maybe Rafaels if our kind neighbour scrape that deal with French……
well J-10 engine is turning into nightmare…
the deliveries were expected from 2015 lets hope chineese can figure something out……

Wha a dreamy person you are. Oh I see you WISH India
scarps Rafale deal so that you can buy them.

If you can really afford them, why not go straight ahead and buy TYPHOON right away instead
of waiting for IAF to cancel Rafale deal?

 

[Skull and Bones]

I thought J-10B deal was dead months ago, but it seems there is still some smoke left.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Replacing three platforms with one is ok as it makes logistics much more easier, but replacing three jets with one is a recipe for disaster. In defence matters capability comparison should be with the enemy, not capability of half a century old fighters.

As far as Lean, Mean, fighting machine is concerned, that is valid for administrative leanness only, not the fighting arm which has to face a four to five times bigger enemy with much more capable assets and much more strategic depth. Looking at the way IAF is growing both in numbers and capability, PAF should plan to increase number of fighting squadrons, let the government think about the economy and fund availability.

Lean ,mean , hard hitting machine.
PAF has always perused quality rather than quantity.....since JF-17 can perform and execute three battlefield missions as an interceptor, fighter/bomber and maritime strike, hence it can replace three dedicated version of Mirages namely IIIEP, VPA/2/3 respectively.....somewhat like the EF Typhoon has replaced the Phantom, Jaguars and some Tornado squadrons in the RAF.

 

[muse]

I sincerely hope our Chinese friends will have learned something consequential from this engine debacle -- it's ALWAYS engine first.

 

[MZUBAIR]

No money, No Aircraft

 

[Gessler]

T he example wasn't given as a vis-a-vis scenario but just as a figure of speech, however, since you have dragged all into the argument, let me remind you, apart from inducting more MKIs, there's nothing immediate pending in the IAF, the future prospects are for the Rafael and PAK-FA......in the meantime IAF will still be flying the likes of Bison, Jaguars, Fulcrums and Mirage 2k....despite been in service for decades, none of them known for any worthy battle performance/records.....by rough estimates, it'll be at least a few years before any new platforms are in strength with the IAF, regardless, PAF has it's own goals.
Never jump to conclusions otherwise MiG-21s should have been long phased out of the Indian service. !!

Also you are forgetting that a MASSIVE COMPROMISE has already been made by PAF.

Even as per the article in OP, the JF-17 numbers were slashed from 275 to 150, a reduction of almost 50% from previous figure.

Keep in mind that when PAF originally wanted 275 JF-17s, they ALREADY KNEW that IAF was going for MKIs in numbers of 200+. But in the end, IAF ended up with 270+ MKIs on order while PAF ended with just enough money to buy 150.

Get the picture?

 

[MZUBAIR]

My Advise to PAF, sell old aircraft's 200 F7, 40 A5, 100 Mirage............get some $$$ and try to get 50 J10.

A small but strong fleet is batter then a large and weak fleet.