Pakistan lost much in relationship with USA

[Indus Pakistan]

@LeGenD

But and this is a big but. I think things will change now. USA policy on Pakistan failed. One of the problems with Western democracies is they suffer from political myopia. I am minded of this after having a frank and animated discussion with a English gent the other day. The town I live in has large British-Pak population. I am one of them. Taking a objective measure the truth is we are a darned liability. Most of my lot are into drugs, petty crime, dodgy business practices, shoddy neighbourhoods, terrible mannes, lack of civic attributes, having little regard for environment, prone to corruptive processes, terrible driving habits, having too many children, showing no gratitude to the country that has given them a comfortable home but showing lot of love for Palestine etc etc. I mean this is sad to say but in retrospect it was terrible mistake by British governments to "invite" so many workers from Pakistan in 1960s. This "dumb" policy came about because of labour shortage in 1960s. The labour shortage occurred in Victorian era industries that were on their way out. Instead of letting them close down the British government let in ocean of migrant workers from ex-colonies. by 1970s those industries shut down. So for a "stay of execution" for decade or so we have almost million Pakistani's in UK. That is political myopia in action. USA has done the same thing with Pakistan.

However going to the "but" I began with thins are about to change. The Chinese. They plan over decades. The CPEC investment of $60 billion comes with long term Chinese involvement and I think they will squeeze the ruling elite in the correct direction or failing that they will hurt Pakistan. All behind the scenes though. So I look forward to increasing Chinese influence with their rampent athiesm and worldly money making culture that demands, extracts and expects nothing but return on their investment.

Or else !!!

What about the military? Do they keep the awam's interest in mind given that military dictators have given more to US than civilians?

Every time the military is in power it relies on the USA to extend it's rule. In effect the military uses USA as a crutch to extend it's rule while bagging $ billions. It's ac simple trade off. The military gives USA what it wants and in return USA gives dollars and toys. Musharaf sold Afghanistan for few billion dollars and few toys - the glitter of having Bush as mate got this mediocre person who has zero credibility ruling Pakistan for nearly decade. What exactly did he achieve? He claimed that he was going to clean Pakistan of the likes of Sharif. All he did was gave him a vacation for a while. It took the courts to sort out Sharif.

 

[Zee-shaun]

Lost much? We lost everything and gained religious extremism, more enemies and a destroyed economy. They were never our friends it was about keeping your enemies closer than your friends.

We are lucky to have survived this cancer and happy to pass it on our desperate eastern neighbors.

 

[Enigma_]

We are lucky to have survived this cancer and happy to pass it on our desperate eastern neighbors.

Haven't survived just quite yet. But I feel like that we are close. Time will tell.

 

[Zee-shaun]

Haven't survived just quite yet.

Yes we have bro, just in time. The full cure will be there when we say no to USAID and persue our own independent foreign policy.

 

[LeGenD]

@Kaptaan

We have to sort out our problems with the US at some point. We cannot put all of our eggs in the same basket. If scores of Islamic countries have productive ties with the WEST, why cannot we?

I am sorry but China is not a substitute to WEST in a number of fronts. In-fact, do you see China severing ties with the US in the foreseeable future due to some disagreements in the Pacific? This is not how things work.

Pakistani love to talk about productive ties with China and Turkey but they fail to realize that both not only have productive ties with the WEST in general but even Israel. China and Turkey think on a broader spectrum and not irrationally.

We need a sincere and broadminded leadership that can deliver on various fronts.

As far as Pervez Musharraf is concerned; he is very talented and he rescued Pakistan from total disaster. In-fact, he established a very good rapport with the WEST and assembled a team that uplifted economy, living standards and education. In-fact, CPEC is the outcome of his vision; Gwadar Port became functional under his watch.

However, Musharraf made one terrible mistake: NRO.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Lost much? We lost everything and gained religious extremism, more enemies and a destroyed economy. They were never our friends it was about keeping your enemies closer than your friends.

I have a simple question. All of Pakistan and Japan and South Korea and Taiwan were under the wings of USA. How come it is that Pakistan lost a lot while they prospered. There must be something wrong with what you folks were doing. May be focusing on the wrong things! Remember a partner can help you to reach where you want to reach. But a partner will not make you decide the right place for you to reach.

 

[Enigma_]

I have a simple question. All of Pakistan and Japan and South Korea and Taiwan were under the wings of USA. How come it is that Pakistan lost a lot while they prospered. There must be something wrong with what you folks were doing.

A lot of things. But mainly the overwhelming domination of the Zions and Neocons in the US after the cold war. Besides the US never saw Pakistan as the equivalent of the other nations you have mentioned. It just used Pakistan to break the USSR. Japan and South Korea have been conquered by military conquest and are now their outposts. Taiwan too has a special history in regards to the US and serves as a perfect pawn against China. Plus Pakistan developed nuclear weapons which the US was completely against and put us under sanctions. Anyone that disobeys the US must get punished as is their motto. Then there's obviously the geopolitical factor and a whole lot more if you explore deep enough.

 

[XDescendantX]

Better for Pakistan to learn late then never. CPEC is full steam ahead & we should concentrate fully on maturing this project. Keep strengthening our bonds with our true allies (ex: China & Turkey) and maybe a few others & ignore the rest of the fakes.

Sometimes you have to experience things first hand to learn who your true friends are. Glad it happened early on & not later down the road.

 

[Shajida Khan]

A lot of things. But mainly the overwhelming domination of the Zions and Neocons in the US after the cold war. Besides the US never saw Pakistan as the equivalent of the other nations you have mentioned. It just used Pakistan to break the USSR. Japan and South Korea have been conquered by military conquest and are now their outposts. Taiwan too has a special history in regards to the US and serves as a perfect pawn against China. Plus Pakistan developed nuclear weapons which the US was completely against and put us under sanctions. Anyone that disobeys the US must get punished as is their motto. Then there's obviously the geopolitical factor and a whole lot more if you explore deep enough.

Zions and Neocons were there for ALL of those countries, why were you special?
South Korea was also used to keep an eye on communist influence in the Korean peninsula. They turned out quite okay.
Taiwan was also used as a pawn against communism.
Japan was also dictated term of surrender and used as a staging ground for US pacific fleet.
Pakistan tested nuclear weapons somewhere in 1997/98. Even in 90s you were not doing really well.
There is another much much simpler thing. Almost surreal.

Its literacy rate of Pakistan. Rate of university graduates per 1000. Rate of Engineering graduates per 1000.

Sure as hell all of that was way higher in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc.

You know I heard something pretty good about an year back, Money unmasks you. It amplifies what you really are. US could have only given you money. It did give Pakistan money. Rest is history.

 

[Divergent]

Interesting to see some backbone

 

[Dalit]

Pakistan made its own choices as a sovereign nation, and must bear the consequences, good and bad.

We are doing just the right thing now. America is just going to have to deal with it. Do more won’t work anymore.

 

[Enigma_]

Zions and Neocons were there for ALL of those countries, why were you special?
South Korea was also used to keep an eye on communist influence in the Korean peninsula. They turned out quite okay.
Taiwan was also used as a pawn against communism.
Japan was also dictated term of surrender and used as a staging ground for US pacific fleet.
Pakistan tested nuclear weapons somewhere in 1997/98. Even in 90s you were not doing really well.
There is another much much simpler thing. Almost surreal.

Its literacy rate of Pakistan. Rate of university graduates per 1000. Rate of Engineering graduates per 1000.

Sure as hell all of that was way higher in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc.

You know I heard something pretty good about an year back, Money unmasks you. It amplifies what you really are. US could have only given you money. It did give Pakistan money. Rest is history.

Your whataboutism makes zero sense. Why would the US help Pakistan when it is not under its direct command? The others ones are.

 

[imadul]

Pakistan made its own choices as a sovereign nation, and must bear the consequences, good and bad.

S O V E R E I G N
There may be a beginning if IK wins.

 

[LeGenD]

A lot of things. But mainly the overwhelming domination of the Zions and Neocons in the US after the cold war. Besides the US never saw Pakistan as the equivalent of the other nations you have mentioned. It just used Pakistan to break the USSR. Japan and South Korea have been conquered by military conquest and are now their outposts. Taiwan too has a special history in regards to the US and serves as a perfect pawn against China. Plus Pakistan developed nuclear weapons which the US was completely against and put us under sanctions. Anyone that disobeys the US must get punished as is their motto. Then there's obviously the geopolitical factor and a whole lot more if you explore deep enough.

Bro,

Relationships are a two-way street. You have to compromise to a certain extent.

Not just South Korea, Japan and Taiwan; US shook hands with China in the 1970s and you can see where China stand today.

One must wonder how US and China forged such a productive relationship after years of enmity and opposition. Chinese understood that if they are to progress, they have to revamp their foreign policy completely and facilitate foreign investment. They have to put the interests of their state ahead of political elitism.

Mao Zedong used to be a dictator and had a huge ego. However, even he woke up to the "ground realities" in the 1970s. FYI: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/rapprochement-china

This may surprise you but Pakistan played a role in bringing US and China to the negotiation table. However, everything changed when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto came to power; he was a communist and he desired communist reforms in the country.

Our military had a straightforward foreign policy but our politicians were wolves in disguise. Thanks to Bhutto, not only Pakistan confused US but lost its another half in a war.

US has a lot to offer but Pakistani politicians prioritize their interests over the interests of the state; this is the greatest problem in our case. I am not saying that we become subservient to US dictate but we are counting on the worst of the lot among our politicians to steer us forward which is a wishful thinking on our part. Army is simply fed up because it is not its job to manage Pakistani foreign affairs.

Boycotts and enmity is not a winning track; Venezuela thought in this way and look where it has landed.

 

[Enigma_]

Bro,

Relationships are a two-way street. You have to compromise to a certain extent.

Not just South Korea, Japan and Taiwan; US shook hands with China in the 1970s and you can see where China stand today.

One must wonder how US and China forged such a productive relationship after years of enmity and opposition. Chinese understood that if they are to progress, they have to revamp their foreign policy completely and facilitate foreign investment. They have to put the interests of their state ahead of political elitism.

Mao Zedong used to be a dictator and had a huge ego. However, even he woke up to the "ground realities" in the 1970s. FYI: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/rapprochement-china

This may surprise you but Pakistan played a role in bringing US and China to the negotiation table. However, everything changed when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto came to power; he was a communist and he desired communist reforms in the country.

Our military had a straightforward foreign policy but our politicians were wolves in disguise. Thanks to Bhutto, not only Pakistan confused US but lost its another half in a war.

US has a lot to offer but Pakistani politicians prioritize their interests over the interests of the state; this is the greatest problem in our case. I am not saying that we become subservient to US dictate but we are counting on the worst of the lot among our politicians to steer us forward which is a wishful thinking on our part. Army is simply fed up because it is not its job to manage Pakistani foreign affairs.

Boycotts and enmity is not a winning track; Venezuela thought in this way and look where it has landed.

But the US views Pakistan as an enemy!