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Pakistan Keen To Purchase F-16 Fleet From Norway: Mukhtar

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I don't think its gonna be a good idea to buy used f-16's .mean for how long will we keep huging those f-16's .they are good fighters but everything has a peak during certain period of time and f-16's peak era was 1980-2010 or may be you can add couple of years more but now with the evolution of new tech they have become less threatening as compared to the other aircrafts .Also bringing more f-16's in means stepping ahead towards another possible embargo. jf-17 would be 1000 times better than a embargoed f-16

Also current plans are to evacuate NATO forces from Afghanistan till/in 2012.so after that we would see sudden change in policy from US towards Pakistan and surely that would be more negative than the current one.As they would no more need help from Pakistan like they do now.

So why to step towards ambiguity?

Also many PAF officials have said 100 of times that within couple of years f-16 block 52+ will not be the most advance fighter in PAF inventory .so when they say this they mean this as they have some credibility .
An Airforce who loves f-16 to death when herself says that something better than block 52+ is coming out in couple of years so you can think what they mean
 
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idea to induct old f-16 don,t facinate me too..
old is old we should focus on jf-17 and fc-20 rather than diverting our intentions to any used aircraft like f-16 or mirage 2000
 
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The question we need to ask ourselves, " are we preparing ourselves for a long sustained conventional war" ?????

The only reason why i see pakistan getting so many planes is to keep its fleet flying even if US imposes sanctions on it during war with its enemies...


i dont see any other reasons why they will go for f16s when they can have J10 in their fleet...
 
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F16 might be an old platform but it has evolved over the years and the newer versions of F16's are advanced enough to stand toe to toe with any newer fighter aircraft. PAF would be looking for other options but to be honest, we simply don't know. Upgrade of the Air Force is an evolving process, unless the opposing side gets an F22 i really don't see the balance of power changing. In fact, PAF is slowly closing some gaps where IAF enjoyed superiority.

Sir, let me make it clear that my intention was not to bring in IAF and do a comparison with PAF....I am with you 100% that upgradation of Air-Force is an evolving process and that is why we just don't talk about 5 years from now we think about a decade from now and even beyond...I am with you 100% that F-16 is a very potent platform in today's context...Your block 52 is pretty good...Yes it is not the best out there but it can deliver the knock out punch and that's what matters....

However had you been getting these planes in near future(less than 5 years time frame) i can still understand. This deal is going to fructify at around 2018-2020 when PAF will get F-16's in shape(MLU's performed)....Now i assume that these fighters will stay in PAF for atleast 10 years and in case total fleet goes beyond 100 then PAF will be operating F-16's even beyond 2030, no??? To me this is not logical...Why should i get into a deal well ahead in future on an old platform??? Mind it i am sure there will be some logic because PAF would know but i am at loss to comprehend it.....


First of all i am lost, what do you mean by old airframe. The Falcon Upgrade makes the airframe of the F16 as good as new, i think you can pull out 5000 hours after it. The F16 might be an old design but thats due to the fact that the General Dynamics simply outdid itself. Its not the fault of the Americans that they developed an airplane that was far ahead of its time, and due to the constant upgrade of the F18/F15 a lot of their technologies were added on the F16. If the PAF fields a fleet full of 4th Generation Aircrafts, 8 years down the line it appears that if not all than majority of IAF fleet will also consist of 4th Generation Aircrafts.

Sir, as said F-16 is no doubt a potent platform but it is not the best out there....I adhere to the the notion that it will get the job done and that's what matters however F-16 is not out of its league of 4 generations....You are right when you say that by 2018-2020 we will have a sizable fleet of 4 generation fighters....but what composition??? 2018-2020 is when you will get your hands on these planes and you will stick with them for atleast 2030....Our MKI's are in process of getting a MLU right now...It is logical to say we will thinking of yet another one during that time frame..we would have got all the aircrafts from MMRCA deal as well(which are better than current Pak fleet of F-16's on paper)...Sir, F-16 is good plane but will it be good even 10-20 years from now is the question??? It seems you are convinced it would be....

First of all lets talk about what sort of 5th Generation Aircrafts we are talking about. If its an F22 which conventional radars simply cannot pick up, than we are in huge trouble but lucky for us the PAK FA's are not as low observable as the F22's. To counter them we need to invest in radar technology, electronic warfare and the latest generation of weapons. The F16 whether its 8 years down the line, would not be going up for Block 52 upgrade it will probably be upgraded to the avionics and weapon standards off that time. Israel, Greece, Turkey or Poland have done their homework and that is why they bought brand new F16's. The biggest advantage that the F16 offers in Air to Air Fight are the AMRAAM and AIM9X cued up with the JHMCS, i would any day place my money on the American weapon system.

Sir, once again you are talking about today....Though please share with me some news about new F-16's bought by these countries recently... Apart from Greece(economic mess and shifted gears from Eurofighter to F16's) i don't find any other parties taking new deliveries...Also even if they are then it is the right time for F-16....They are potent in today's world, so they would be able to extract good time when these fighters are in peak...Pak is assuming that it is going to be as potent as it is in today's world even 10 years from now...May be there are valid reasons to say so, may be there aren't any...


Also as far as FGFA is concerned then it is all speculations right now...May be the final product won't be able to even out class F-16 and may be it will outclass even raptor(which is what the target plane is)...So let's wait for that plane to come up before making bold statements about it....
 
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The question we need to ask ourselves, " are we preparing ourselves for a long sustained conventional war" ?????

The only reason why i see pakistan getting so many planes is to keep its fleet flying even if US imposes sanctions on it during war with its enemies...


i dont see any other reasons why they will go for f16s when they can have J10 in their fleet...


Doesn't seem right...Am i right if i say that Norway need American green flag before signing this deal???? If they are allowing you to buy these planes than spare parts should not be a problem, no???
 
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People freak out when they find out about the age. Old is gold my friends.. Norway F-16s are in better shape then our current A/B models and probably as good as IAF Mirage-2000 (without the upgrades). Once they are inducted in PAF they will head towards TAI for MLU. period.
 
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Doesn't seem right...Am i right if i say that Norway need American green flag before signing this deal???? If they are allowing you to buy these planes than spare parts should not be a problem, no???

When we bought the F-16s in 80s, we may have not thought that sanctions would be so close and we would not only be getting the already ordered F-16s rather in few years time would be facing lot of problems with respect to spare parts and have to cannibalize some of the operational F-16s.

So here also, we may want a fleet of 70 or so F-16s, but having extra frames would be an added advantage for utilization of spare parts from those frames which would not be operational or another strategy can be used for the extra airframes.
 
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To have F-16 as a third tier aircraft is good option. Also 10-15 Million USD is not a big amount for MLUed F-16.
 
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People freak out when they find out about the age. Old is gold my friends.. Norway F-16s are in better shape then our current A/B models and probably as good as IAF Mirage-2000 (without the upgrades). Once they are inducted in PAF they will head towards TAI for MLU. period.

We have only 2 spare kits. How can we MLU more?
 
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I think PAF is looking to create another Mirage III/V fleet.

Because J-10 is still some years away.
 
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I think PAF will end up with over 100+ F16 and these will serve until 2040.

Alongside 150+ Thunders

And 100 FC20

In terms of ability

1st Tier FC20
2nd Tier F16
3rd Tier Thunders
 
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Sir, let me make it clear that my intention was not to bring in IAF and do a comparison with PAF....I am with you 100% that upgradation of Air-Force is an evolving process and that is why we just don't talk about 5 years from now we think about a decade from now and even beyond...I am with you 100% that F-16 is a very potent platform in today's context...Your block 52 is pretty good...Yes it is not the best out there but it can deliver the knock out punch and that's what matters....

However had you been getting these planes in near future(less than 5 years time frame) i can still understand. This deal is going to fructify at around 2018-2020 when PAF will get F-16's in shape(MLU's performed)....Now i assume that these fighters will stay in PAF for atleast 10 years and in case total fleet goes beyond 100 then PAF will be operating F-16's even beyond 2030, no??? To me this is not logical...Why should i get into a deal well ahead in future on an old platform??? Mind it i am sure there will be some logic because PAF would know but i am at loss to comprehend it.....

Sir I will try my best to explain and be assured i am not trying to turn this into an IAF vs PAF discussion, the reason why i bring up the IAF is because that is the only conventional enemy we face as compared to the IAF which has to factor in the PLAAF too.

If for example lets say PAF receives additional air frames of the F16's in 2018-2020 which is possible, it will still be potent because something is needed to counter the fleet of M2K, Mig29, MKI and MRCA. If you look at the current specs of the Block 52's, its capable of going toe to toe against the MKI or any competitors in the MRCA competition. But since you are talking about the time frame of 2018, lets for argument sakes say PAF acquires additional F16's and puts them through MLU at that time period. What is an MLU; its the upgrade of the aircrafts avionics, radar and refurbishment of the airframe. If the F16's are put through the MLU process in 2018, they will be according to the requirements of that time and not today's. Its not only the PAF but if you look at other air forces such as the IDAF, IAF, TUAF are well expected to keep their 4th Generation Aircraft's active till at least 2040. We cannot add USAF to the list because they have a defence budget of $700 billion, other countries that are replacing their F16's with F35's have small fleets and can easily afford to do so.

But on a serious note, since the delivery of the new F16's is complete i expect the PAF to press on the US to release the remaining embargoed F16's and additional F16's through EDA. This will happen in the next 2 or 3 years.

Sir, as said F-16 is no doubt a potent platform but it is not the best out there....I adhere to the the notion that it will get the job done and that's what matters however F-16 is not out of its league of 4 generations....You are right when you say that by 2018-2020 we will have a sizable fleet of 4 generation fighters....but what composition??? 2018-2020 is when you will get your hands on these planes and you will stick with them for atleast 2030....Our MKI's are in process of getting a MLU right now...It is logical to say we will thinking of yet another one during that time frame..we would have got all the aircrafts from MMRCA deal as well(which are better than current Pak fleet of F-16's on paper)...Sir, F-16 is good plane but will it be good even 10-20 years from now is the question??? It seems you are convinced it would be....

It is definitely not the best platform out their but as i have repeated, it is more than capable of going toe to toe against any 4th Generation Aircraft. The Rafale and Eurofighter, no matter how glamorous they look and no matter how much the Europeans hype them are a little to late to the party. As this has been shown in several exercises that have been conducted, the F16 stood on its own legs against its newer adversaries. As i have said it before, if lets say the MKI is put through the MLU process in 2018, the F16's would be put through the MLU standards of that time period. The avionics, radar and the weapons package of 2018 would be installed up on the F16 during the MLU process.

Allow me to point out a major flaw in your argument with all due respect. You are comparing platforms one on one, in a real warfare this is an unlikely scenario. A modern air warfare is about the deployment of all assets in a cohesive strategy. So in our case; its about deploying all our fighter aircrafts, AWACS, EW specialized aircrafts, ground radars and SAMS in a cohesive manner. The radars of our F16's dont have to be as good as your MRCA aircrafts for example. A net centric organization which the PAF already is, its all about data linking. The F16 does not even has to turn on its radar,the AWACS and Ground Radars can be transmitting the information to the F16 via a data link of the opposing aircrafts. This is just one of the advantages of a net centric organization, their are several others too. If you compare air crafts that IAF has or will have as compared to the PAF one on one, obviously the IAF has superior air crafts but PAF is looking to counter them through force multipliers linked up with our air assets. In my opinion this strategy will definitely work, IAF made a huge mistake when it introduced the AWACS into subcontinent.

Also as far as FGFA is concerned then it is all speculations right now...May be the final product won't be able to even out class F-16 and may be it will outclass even raptor(which is what the target plane is)...So let's wait for that plane to come up before making bold statements about it....

Indeed we should wait for the final product before passing any judgements, but i am making my statement based on the visuals of the PAK FA and the wonderful analysis Gambit did of the plane when it made its maiden flight. The Stealth Fighter is definitely a game changer in our scenario, i dont see additional MKI's or MRCA forcing the PAF to make drastic changes to our modernization plan.
 
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When we bought the F-16s in 80s, we may have not thought that sanctions would be so close and we would not only be getting the already ordered F-16s rather in few years time would be facing lot of problems with respect to spare parts and have to cannibalize some of the operational F-16s.

So here also, we may want a fleet of 70 or so F-16s, but having extra frames would be an added advantage for utilization of spare parts from those frames which would not be operational or another strategy can be used for the extra airframes.

Bear with me for my lack of knowledge but can you please throw some light on spare parts??? I believe Norway would need approval from US before selling these F-16's to you...Now if they are allowing the re-sale of F-16's as such can't PAF simply buy spare parts from them???? Is it possible????



Sir I will try my best to explain and be assured i am not trying to turn this into an IAF vs PAF discussion, the reason why i bring up the IAF is because that is the only conventional enemy we face as compared to the IAF which has to factor in the PLAAF too.
Thanks for the clarification....I have already thanked you for putting so much effort in making a thick head like me understand your POV , so once again thanks a ton for that :)....


If for example lets say PAF receives additional air frames of the F16's in 2018-2020 which is possible, it will still be potent because something is needed to counter the fleet of M2K, Mig29, MKI and MRCA. If you look at the current specs of the Block 52's, its capable of going toe to toe against the MKI or any competitors in the MRCA competition. But since you are talking about the time frame of 2018, lets for argument sakes say PAF acquires additional F16's and puts them through MLU at that time period. What is an MLU; its the upgrade of the aircrafts avionics, radar and refurbishment of the airframe. If the F16's are put through the MLU process in 2018, they will be according to the requirements of that time and not today's. Its not only the PAF but if you look at other air forces such as the IDAF, IAF, TUAF are well expected to keep their 4th Generation Aircraft's active till at least 2040. We cannot add USAF to the list because they have a defence budget of $700 billion, other countries that are replacing their F16's with F35's have small fleets and can easily afford to do so.

I am well aware of that...IAF will easily have more than 450-600 4/4.5 generation plane by 2018-2020 and they will easily be in service till 2030 and beyond....My point is not on that aspect...However do you expect IAF to induct more 4.5 generation planes at around 2018-2020???? These inductions are being done right now and will continue till around 2015-2017 there after we will start looking out for 5 generation planes...We will not be inducting more 4/4.5 generation planes at that time....There is no way PAF can let us phase out all our 3rd generation planes and wait till 2018-2020 to fill in the numbers....JF-17 and F-10 variants are the best bet for PAF and that is what they would be throwing at IAF for counter....F-16's are good but there is a limit to which upgradation can be done on an old horse....Secondly once USAF phase out all their F-16's do you expect upgradations will keep on happening at the same pace???? Please understand there is a reason people are moving on to F-35 and phasing out F-16's....

Low cost might be a factor that Pak has shown interest in this machine but then J-10's are even better option from that aspect as well.....


But on a serious note, since the delivery of the new F16's is complete i expect the PAF to press on the US to release the remaining embargoed F16's and additional F16's through EDA. This will happen in the next 2 or 3 years.
Which sounds logical to me, not the 2018 scenario....


It is definitely not the best platform out their but as i have repeated, it is more than capable of going toe to toe against any 4th Generation Aircraft. The Rafale and Eurofighter, no matter how glamorous they look and no matter how much the Europeans hype them are a little to late to the party. As this has been shown in several exercises that have been conducted, the F16 stood on its own legs against its newer adversaries. As i have said it before, if lets say the MKI is put through the MLU process in 2018, the F16's would be put through the MLU standards of that time period. The avionics, radar and the weapons package of 2018 would be installed up on the F16 during the MLU process.

It seems you are convinced that F-16's upgradation can be done to nth level and it would be able to compete no matter how future technologies shape out...which might be true but i am not sure......


Allow me to point out a major flaw in your argument with all due respect. You are comparing platforms one on one, in a real warfare this is an unlikely scenario. A modern air warfare is about the deployment of all assets in a cohesive strategy. So in our case; its about deploying all our fighter aircrafts, AWACS, EW specialized aircrafts, ground radars and SAMS in a cohesive manner. The radars of our F16's dont have to be as good as your MRCA aircrafts for example. A net centric organization which the PAF already is, its all about data linking. The F16 does not even has to turn on its radar,the AWACS and Ground Radars can be transmitting the information to the F16 via a data link of the opposing aircrafts. This is just one of the advantages of a net centric organization, their are several others too. If you compare air crafts that IAF has or will have as compared to the PAF one on one, obviously the IAF has superior air crafts but PAF is looking to counter them through force multipliers linked up with our air assets. In my opinion this strategy will definitely work, IAF made a huge mistake when it introduced the AWACS into subcontinent.

You are absolutely correct....However the same scenario is true for the opponents....Secondly a defensive doctrine does not mean there will be no attack in enemy territory....You got to think on those terms as well....Secondly net centric is a pretty cool concept but still one would like to go for newer platforms which can adapt to the ever changing world quicker than their older counterparts....


Indeed we should wait for the final product before passing any judgements, but i am making my statement based on the visuals of the PAK FA and the wonderful analysis Gambit did of the plane when it made its maiden flight. The Stealth Fighter is definitely a game changer in our scenario, i dont see additional MKI's or MRCA forcing the PAF to make drastic changes to our modernization plan.
Indeed Gambit is pretty knowledgeable but the manufactures are not novice as well...The sole purpose of this plane is to counter Raptor....If it can't then it will be a failure from Russian POV....For IAF it will still do because none of our adversaries are throwing raptor at us but not for Russia...so i will definitely wait before convincing myself that T-50 is not its worth....
 
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Pak, Norway to broaden bilateral ties
PM hints at defence co-operation
Tanvir Siddiqi/ Sharafat Kazmi

Islamabad—Pakistan and Norway have expressed keenness to further strengthen and broaden bilateral ties and work together to fight the war against terror and promote peace and stability in the region.

This was agreed to at a meeting between Minister for Defence, Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, and the visiting Norwegian Defence Minister, Ms. Grete Faremo here on Monday.

During the meeting views were exchanged on various issues including defence cooperation, Pakistan’s counter terrorism efforts and its contribution in UN peace keeping operations and security situation of the region.

Talking to his Norwegian counterpart, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar said that Norway was a friendly country and a valued partner on various international and regional issues, and Pakistan was keen to work closely with Norwegian government for furthering the bilateral relations.

He said both countries needed to enhance collaboration in the field of defence production and proposed to undertake joint ventures especially in ship building and sea boats manufacturing sectors.

The Minister also said that Pakistan was keen to purchase F-16 aircraft fleet which was reportedly being replaced by Norway with F-35 Lightning-II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

Referring to war against terror, he said that the international community was not helping Pakistan in true sense as the war on terror was very expensive. He noted with concern that the international community had given hopes but failed to fulfil its commitment to establish Reconstruction and Opportunity Zones (ROZs) in FATA which were essential for bringing social and economic prosperity in the terror-stricken region. He termed the recent statement of the German Chancellor Angela Merkel during a press conference with the Indian Prime Manmohan Singh in Berlin blaming Pakistan for the Bombay terrorist attacks as unfortunate. He regretted that the friendly countries were giving such biased and unfair statements despite the fact that Pakistan had been paying a heavy price than any other country in the world, in terms of man and material losses in the war on terror. On the issue of cross border movements, the Minister said that there was no cross border movement by the terrorists from the Pakistan’s side of the border. The Minister also appreciated the Norwegian support for the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs), flood victims and the development of Pakistan social sector particularly its assistance of US $ 7 million and US $ 11 million for the establishment of 350 community schools in FATA and basic improvement projects in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. Admiring Pakistan’s sacrifices and anti-terror contribution, Ms. Grete Faremo said that Pakistan had been playing a vital role in the
 
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