Pakistan Is Taking a Dark Turn. It's Time for a New USA Policy.

[LeGenD]

Pakistan will complete CPEC with China, and secure this trade and energy corridor by giving Chinese a naval base if need be. We will give Chinese airforce a base too, if need be. Even if that requires giving Gwadar on a lease. We bought it, we can lease it too!

We will do what's in our best interests. We will make alliances of our choice.

USA and their puppets (inc you) will neither scare nor bully us into submission to do their dirty work.

Coming target is to shut down all CIA sponsored media houses.

This is called trading one master for the other.

No, Pakistan is not militarizing CPEC. Pakistan Army have established its own task force to secure CPEC. China won't have military bases in Pakistan, you can be rest assured.

Pakistan cannot economically prosper with confrontations. IK have conveyed this in clear terms to everybody. We won't be hired gun for any country, period.

You are incredibly dense by the way. We are all Pakistani and we all desire its betterment. I am just pointing out that turning Pakistan into DPRK 2.0 is not the way forward, and it won't work.

 

[Clutch]

Relax guys ... Trump is getting impeached before the midterms... All Pakistan needs to do is lay low... The American empire itself is imploding as it orange emperor without cloths lashes out in childish agony as he sinks.

 

[Verve]

You are incredibly dense by the way. We are all Pakistani and we all desire its betterment. I am just pointing out that turning Pakistan into DPRK 2.0 is not the way forward, and it won't work.

Pakistan will not be another NK.

However we will be portrayed as 2.0 by the superpower you sing songs of. Western media is full of anti-Pakistan propaganda already and that is only going to pick up pace.

Did you know that Shalwar Kameez is now the declared dress of terrorists?

 

[khansaheeb]

Bro, do we have any? Are we a near-peer adversary to US? Have a good look at the sheer size of Indian ocean first: http://www.geographicguide.com/africa-maps/indianocean.htm

Subjecting massive stationary targets such as Indian cities to nuclear strikes via ballistic missiles is much easier than attacking heavily armed USN assets across the Indian Ocean which is a huge environment. Read the response of an informed individual in this link, and enlighten yourself: https://www.quora.com/How-effective-is-DF-21-missiles-against-US-aircraft-carrier-group

Fairly good technical points in that response. We cannot just expend our strategic assets [blindly] in a war. In our case, and due to our extremely limited resources, every strike counts.

Their is massive asymmetry in the quantity and quality of USN and PN. First, understand the disparity in numbers:-

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a15297/us-navy-entire-fleet/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a19746695/us-navy-subs-infographic/

Now, I want you to watch these educational videos:-

A single Arleigh Burke class destroyer is a fortress of a warship: https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/

Now, familiarize yourself with their strike options:-

AGM-86B ALCM range = 2500 KM
AGM-86C ALCM range = 950 KM
AGM-86D ALCM range = 1320 KM
Tomahawk cruise missile range = ~2500 KM

They have a large fleet of strategic bombers to launch ALCM. Every strategic bomber incorporate formidable electronic warfare capabilities to jam/spoof radar systems from vast distances, and B-2 Spirit is virtually invisible to any radar system anyways.

Ohio-class submarine - alone - carry 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles at a time. Enter entire USN and you are dealing with too much firepower from this spectrum alone. Now complement this layer of firepower with a large fleet of strategic bombers, and you are looking at hundreds of long-range cruise missiles heading towards your assets from multiple directions in one go and such a barrage will overwhelm your defenses and C&C capabilities.

And, even if a single nuke is fired from our side, then Ohio-class strategic submarines will spring into action: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...tic-missile-submarines-the-us-militarys-22343

Ohio-class strategic submarine - alone - carry 20 Trident D5 ICBM-range SLBM. Each Trident D5 SLBM can be armed with up to 8 thermonuclear warheads. Even if they are carrying up to 6 each; we are looking at up to 120 thermonuclear warheads in a single vessel. Can you imagine the magnitude of fire and fury in this case?

And I haven't even touched the topic of USAF and vast American surveillance capabilities. Please understand that we are poor 3rd world country and in no position to challenge US in a war.

US is a much older nuclear power, and it have vastly superior experience of warfare and surveillance apparatus in place. They have fought a COLD WAR with USSR for 40+ years, and they had a doctrine of preemptive strikes in which they would take the fight to a nuclear armed force in full force before the other side can do something. They have sharpened their tools for decapitating strikes. They have vastly superior methods of monitoring stuff in real-time.

Understand this: US is the greatest superpower in existence. They have the option to crush us like a bug.

Pakistani military [brave as it may seem] is not very keen in confronting US in a war. Nope.

Unfortunately there is a difference between marketing videos and realities. I remember I used to be all excited after watching the videos on UK Type 45 destroyers and frigates and thought the Royal navy was invincible until a few French Exocet missiles tragically made minced meat of them. These videos are great in theory but in practice you never know what the enemy has got which can get past your deference.

Crushing bugs is different to crushing countries lol, You are a comedian or a troll.

 

[Khanate]

Following that logic why keep the anti-India posture. All it does is reinforces the pro India bias and international community rally around Gangadesh.

Pakistan can point to cases of state-sponsored terrorism like Kulbhushan Yadav to justify our posture. Moreover, every Pakistan govt makes peace overtures to Gangaland to no avail.

The point here is about strategic objectives not brownie points. The reality is a Tajik dominated Kabul represents a challange to Pakistan and offers India a base from which to cause grief on our western borders. We need to push US out of that and then sanitize it of Ganga influence. And that can only be achieved by working with China, Russia and Iran. This neighbourhood needs to be 'owned' by those who occupy that geography.

Indo-US presence in Afghanistan presents a challenge for China, Russia and Iran too. Ultimately, Indo-US backed regimes are untenable given the geography, as you pointed out. The rabid anti-Muslim/anti-Islam urges at display in India and U.S. also present a diplomatic and cultural challenge.

This is a joke. Bhutto said "eat grass to get nukes". If only he knew that after getting nukes we would still have people behaving like weaklings he would said let's stick to kebabs, karai, pilau, zarda. I guess there is no therepy for cowardice.

The aim was to provide security for our people so our civilization can flourish. Bhutto did not enjoy the level of security afforded to new generations.

On the subject of nukes. However efficient US is it can never guarantee that if it came to it they could take out every Pak nuke. This only happens in movies. In the real world there is too much slip between the teacup and lips. No US chief could give a US President guarantee that he could take out every Pak nuke. He might say "most can be taken out". Therefore US would face a probably or possible nuclear attack against it's interests.

Agreed.

In addition Pakistan could easily transfer nukes to countries hostile to US like Iran. A sort of replay of AQ Khan v2.0. The United States would sober up and never face this nightmare. It would seek politcal solution with Pakistan.

World War 3 confirmed. #WhoHasTheBiggerButton

Iran does not even have nukes but do you notice a whole raft of countries have been taken down by US but Iran despite the rhetoric has thus far not been attacked. The reason is Iran is no walk over. The Yanks know this.

Iran's ground game in Iraq and Syria are also relevant here. And then there is this:

• Oil could surge to $250 a barrel if Iran follows through with its threat to close a key choke point, analyst says (Business Insider, 2018)

 

[MBT 3000]

by some dumbass yankee

 

[LeGenD]

Unfortunately there is a difference between marketing videos and realities. I remember I used to be all excited after watching the videos on UK Type 45 destroyers and frigates and thought the Royal navy was invincible until a few French Exocet missiles tragically made minced meat of them. These videos are great in theory but in practice you never know what the enemy has got which can get past your deference.

Bro, I was expecting disbelief to surface.

This is not a marketing video:-

- but a message to those who have doubts about the new-set-of-defenses onboard these warships.

These warships are armed with extremely fast and maneuverable interceptors to defeat all types of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles which are trained on them. Arleigh Burke class destroyer have defeated even the much vaunted MaRV in anti-ship role in live-fire experiments using SM-6 interceptors.

No marketing in Yemeni waters either: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uss-...ise-missiles-in-yemeni-waters-in-2016.543523/

These are 21st century advances. And Pakistan is utterly outclassed in this domain.

And you are having doubting their network-centric warfare capabilities as in Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC)?

Welcome to 21st century of warfare. You have a lot of catching to do.

I hope you are aware of the sheer disparity in the defense budget of the two countries.

Crushing bugs is different to crushing countries lol, You are a comedian or a troll.

I understand the kind of disclosures I bring to the table in a discussion, can have a demoralizing effect and/or spark outright denials. However, all members need to come to terms with these realities. Sooner the better.

My "crushing bugs" remark is a metaphor. Of-course, destroying a country is not a joke but a tragic event.

A single Ohio-class strategic submarine can reduce a fairly large country to stone age and/or worse. These monstrous tools of warfare exist and are prowling the oceans in silence as we speak. Step down from your high-horse, and be humble in your judgement.

Now watch this press conference:

Humble, sensible, fairly good and to the point. WE have to work with US, no matter what. No ifs and buts and no excuses. All the noise is good in online forums; doesn't work in real life due to possible implications.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1033020895546236928

This world is unforgiving. Kim Jong-Un ko yeh baat samaj aa gaee hai. Aap kiya cheez ho.

 

[khansaheeb]

Bro, I was expecting disbelief to surface.

This is not a marketing video:-

- but a message to those who have doubts about the new-set-of-defenses onboard these warships.

These warships are armed with extremely fast and maneuverable interceptors to defeat all types of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles which are trained on them. Arleigh Burke class destroyer have defeated even the much vaunted MaRV in anti-ship role in live-fire experiments using SM-6 interceptors.

No marketing in Yemeni waters either: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uss-...ise-missiles-in-yemeni-waters-in-2016.543523/

These are 21st century advances. And Pakistan is utterly outclassed in this domain.

And you are having doubting their network-centric warfare capabilities as in Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC)?

Welcome to 21st century of warfare. You have a lot of catching to do.

I hope you are aware of the sheer disparity in the defense budget of the two countries.


I understand the kind of disclosures I bring to the table in a discussion, can have a demoralizing effect and/or spark outright denials. However, all members need to come to terms with these realities. Sooner the better.

My "crushing bugs" remark is a metaphor. Of-course, destroying a country is not a joke but a tragic event.

A single Ohio-class strategic submarine can reduce a fairly large country to stone age and/or worse. These monstrous tools of warfare exist and are prowling the oceans in silence as we speak. Step down from your high-horse, and be humble in your judgement.

Now watch this press conference:

Humble, sensible, fairly good and to the point. WE have to work with US, no matter what. No ifs and buts and no excuses. All the noise is good in online forums; doesn't work in real life due to possible implications.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1033020895546236928

This world is unforgiving. Kim Jong-Un ko yeh baat samaj aa gaee hai. Aap kiya cheez ho.

Ah, so you are not Pakistani: "You have a lot of catching to do."

 

[LeGenD]

Ah, so you are not Pakistani: "You have a lot of catching to do."

No, I am. However, I dislike the tone and the way some members respond to me instead of addressing an argument in meritorious manner; height of immaturity. This forum is not a true representative of thought processes of every Pakistani out there. I have met scores who are not happy with recent developments. I support PTI but I do not pick fights with those who have different POV than mine.

This forum is the perfect place to discuss warfare technologies and techniques of any country. I will [always] talk fairly in these matters. Sorry, but I am not oblivious to ground realities of the world.

Also, understand the meaning of word "troll."

 

[khansaheeb]

Bro, I was expecting disbelief to surface.

This is not a marketing video:-

- but a message to those who have doubts about the new-set-of-defenses onboard these warships.

These warships are armed with extremely fast and maneuverable interceptors to defeat all types of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles which are trained on them. Arleigh Burke class destroyer have defeated even the much vaunted MaRV in anti-ship role in live-fire experiments using SM-6 interceptors.

No marketing in Yemeni waters either: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uss-...ise-missiles-in-yemeni-waters-in-2016.543523/

These are 21st century advances. And Pakistan is utterly outclassed in this domain.

And you are having doubting their network-centric warfare capabilities as in Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC)?

Welcome to 21st century of warfare. You have a lot of catching to do.

I hope you are aware of the sheer disparity in the defense budget of the two countries.


I understand the kind of disclosures I bring to the table in a discussion, can have a demoralizing effect and/or spark outright denials. However, all members need to come to terms with these realities. Sooner the better.

My "crushing bugs" remark is a metaphor. Of-course, destroying a country is not a joke but a tragic event.

A single Ohio-class strategic submarine can reduce a fairly large country to stone age and/or worse. These monstrous tools of warfare exist and are prowling the oceans in silence as we speak. Step down from your high-horse, and be humble in your judgement.

Now watch this press conference:

Humble, sensible, fairly good and to the point. WE have to work with US, no matter what. No ifs and buts and no excuses. All the noise is good in online forums; doesn't work in real life due to possible implications.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1033020895546236928

This world is unforgiving. Kim Jong-Un ko yeh baat samaj aa gaee hai. Aap kiya cheez ho.

Reality is Pakistan is not a weak nation. Unfortunately for some we have the ability to wipe some countries of the map and the ability to severely damage others. Also it's no longer one on one as can be seen in recent conflicts, its all about alliances and sustainable logistic supply lines which Pakistan has well tested and established. The main deterrence for war is risk and as can be seen by India's posture and rhetoric any war with Pakistan is a highly risky business by any nation and extremely unlikely. Any war with Pakistan can have catastrophic results for any adversary.

While I admire the US military for it's technology and prowess these videos have little meaning against adversaries who are dynamic like them and are in a cycle of improvement and advancement to counter any technological edge they may have in their weapons systems.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

What do you want from me? Let me make it clear to you USA is not going to go to war with Pakistan never ever. Even if we attack a US base first. Please forget this thing and stop babbling about it. USA is in no position to go to war with Pakistan and USA is not going to target any Pakistani missiles because there are 1000 reasons for it which I cannot say. USA will tolerate Pakistan as it is. No need for any diplomacy we are USA non NATO ally and USA has to sort it's own house which is a mess.

One thing more selling more military tech to India is going to hurt USA badly.

Just one food for thought for the Ehl-i Iman: look what's happening to Trump now!!! Even his most trusted "Fixer" is singing like a canary!!! Who's next??? The son-in-law!!!!!! Turkey and Pak aren't just the regular countries (details of which are beyond the scope of this forum, and it might cause some folks to lose Iman) .....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This world is unforgiving. Kim Jong-Un ko yeh baat samaj aa gaee hai. Aap kiya cheez ho.

And, more so is the Murad-i Ilahi!!!! Do you hear from the greatest Empires of the past any longer?????

 

[khansaheeb]

No, I am. However, I dislike the tone and the way some members respond to me instead of addressing an argument in meritorious manner; height of immaturity. This forum is not a true representative of thought processes of every Pakistani out there. I have met scores who are not happy with recent developments. I support PTI but I do not pick fights with those who have different POV than mine.

This forum is the perfect place to discuss warfare technologies and techniques of any country. I will [always] talk fairly in these matters. Sorry, but I am not oblivious to ground realities of the world.

Also, understand the meaning of word "troll."

My friend , you need to be a little more broad minded and not take things personally. No 5 fingers are the same and on a forum like this with all sorts of nationalities, observers and trolls you are bound to get differing opinions and views. The forum has a diverse membership from newbees to veterans, from one liners to members who are able to write strategic research papers. We value all their opinions and ignore content that we don't like (except Indians and Israelis ) Attacking viewpoints no matter how distasteful they maybe is not conducive to freedom of expression of one's views and knowledge, with a few exceptions of course!

 

[LeGenD]

Reality is Pakistan is not a weak nation. Unfortunately for some we have the ability to wipe some countries of the map and the ability to severely damage others. Also it's no longer one on one as can be seen in recent conflicts, its all about alliances and sustainable logistic supply lines which Pakistan has well tested and established. The main deterrence for war is risk and as can be seen by India's posture and rhetoric any war with Pakistan is a highly risky business by any nation and extremely unlikely. Any war with Pakistan can have catastrophic results for any adversary.

Now this is the correct way to address an argument. Thank you.

A great white shark is not a weak animal by any measure. However, an Orca will eviscerate it in a fight, still.

Pakistan is a 'strong' regional power but not a near-peer adversary to US in a fight. There is a massive asymmetry in the capabilities of the two countries in almost any domain. This is the harsh truth we need to come to terms to.

India is our neighbor and vulnerable to our strikes accordingly. However, this is not the case with US. And no! Pakistan doesn't have the firepower to wipe a huge country from the map. Pakistan and India do not have thermonuclear weapons in their arsenal. It will take several nuclear strikes to level Delhi alone.

No! A war with Pakistan will not have catastrophic consequences for the US. This is your imagination, not a reality. US threatened Pakistan in fair and clear terms of dire consequences in 2001, and Pakistan capitulated to the pressure at the time. US threatened North Korea in fair and clear terms of dire consequences in 2017, and North Korea have got the memo - the two are talking now.

US is not India, and does not have similar set of vulnerabilities vis-a-vis Pakistan.

While I admire the US military for it's technology and prowess these videos have little meaning against adversaries who are dynamic like them and are in a cycle of improvement and advancement to counter any technological edge they may have in their weapons systems.

This is a fairly illogical assessment. Yes, we are a dynamic opponent but we have a fair amount of capacity constraints as well. What advancements Pakistan have to counter any technological edge they may have in their weapon systems? Please tell me.

Some are yet to come to terms to the incident of Abbottabad. We cook all kinds of excuses and narratives to hush embarrassing developments. I hope you have read Abbottabad Commission Report which is professional and to the point.

My friend , you need to be a little more broad minded and not take things personally. No 5 fingers are the same and on a forum like this with all sorts of nationalities, observers and trolls you are bound to get differing opinions and views. The forum has a diverse membership from newbees to veterans, from one liners to members who are able to write strategic research papers. We value all their opinions and ignore content that we don't like (except Indians and Israelis ) Attacking viewpoints no matter how distasteful they maybe is not conducive to freedom of expression of one's views and knowledge, with a few exceptions of course!

Point taken.

 

[BHarwana]

Just one food for thought for the Ehl-i Iman: look what's happening to Trump now!!! Even his most trusted "Fixer" is singing like a canary!!! Who's next??? The son-in-law!!!!!! Turkey and Pak aren't just the regular countries (details of which are beyond the scope of this forum, and it might cause some folks to lose Iman) .....

Some thing are beyond discussion. People are bias and they think that way. In the end every one has 2 hands and 2 legs so who holds the power when I have never seen a human that has more than 2 legs?