Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[mikaal hassan]

JUST an opinion could we have signed a contract for some TURKISH MRAP as well on full TOT and get even a better deal

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir when i say that i will prefer two Type 54 over 4 Milgem with no air defense, i am keeping in mind the PN fleet. We have four F22p frigates. Two frigates along with one Type 54 will make a decent patrol formation with good air defense cover. We can have two similar patrol formations. Also we can gradually add more ships of Milgem class to increase the number of patrol formations OR to increase the number of ships in that patrol formation. However at current point of time, it is good air defense cover that our surface fleet lack and that is what MILGEMS fail to provide. That is why i say that i will prefer Type 54 as they will add and bring a capability that we lack while MIGEM does not. Otherwise, i understand that it is great to diversify and also the fact that Turkey have a bright naval future. That is why i say that it will make sense if our ships are equipped with a half decent SAM AND if this order is followed up with bigger and better ships from that "bright future"

Yeah, but I'm saying the PN probably decided to build out AShW and ASW numbers - or rather, replace the Type 21s without cutting fleet numbers - instead of getting fewer AAW-capable ships at this time. Yes, the PN is not getting AAW ships with this order, but that doesn't mean there's no value on the alternative end.

 

[Arsalan]

Yeah, but I'm saying the PN probably decided to build out AShW and ASW numbers - or rather, replace the Type 21s without cutting fleet numbers - instead of getting fewer AAW-capable ships at this time. Yes, the PN is not getting AAW ships with this order, but that doesn't mean there's no value on the alternative end.

I for one have been always about getting priorities right. To me it looks like getting a decent air cover for the surface fleet should have been priority number 1 before adding more units.

Anyway, i am not a navy person so they know better than me. I am just voicing what i feel would have been the right move. Get a decent AAW frigate and then add surface vessels under those AAW umbrella.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I for one have been always about getting priorities right. To me it looks like getting a decent air cover for the surface fleet should have been priority number 1 before adding more units.

Anyway, i am not a navy person so they know better than me. I am just voicing what i feel would have been the right move. Get a decent AAW frigate and then add surface vessels under those AAW umbrella.

I'd like AAW too. I was hoping for the LF-2400 - or even I-Class - but there are factors that we don't know about affecting the final decision.

There's money or lack thereof. Ultimately, this deal is happening thanks to Turkey offering a loan for a portion of the deal, and each MILGEM is still costing $250 m a ship. Each Type 054A would have run Thailand like $350 m a ship, which would have seen higher operating costs as well.

There is also the issue of finding sensors and weapons that provide the biggest bang for the buck for the longest period of time. The Type 054A is an AAW-capable ship, yes, but the HQ-16 is a SALH-guided SAM system. The industry is shifting to quad-packed SAMs with terminal seekers. The PN could order Type 054As with HQ-16s today and receive them at a time when China itself begins selling faster and stealthier ships with terminal seeker SAMs.

I can sit here and say, "yeah, the Umkhonto EIR with Saab Giraffe AMB is awesome", but it may have not been available or within the PN's budget. It's unfortunate, but it's how things are - now, we should try and analyze what the PN is seeking to achieve.

 

[Arsalan]

I'd like AAW too. I was hoping for the LF-2400 - or even I-Class - but there are factors that we don't know about affecting the final decision.

There's money or lack thereof. Ultimately, this deal is happening thanks to Turkey offering a loan for a portion of the deal, and each MILGEM is still costing $250 m a ship. Each Type 054A would have run Thailand like $350 m a ship, which would have seen higher operating costs as well.

There is also the issue of finding sensors and weapons that provide the biggest bang for the buck for the longest period of time. The Type 054A is an AAW-capable ship, yes, but the HQ-16 is a SALH-guided SAM system. The industry is shifting to quad-packed SAMs with terminal seekers. The PN could order Type 054As with HQ-16s today and receive them at a time when China itself begins selling faster and stealthier ships with terminal seeker SAMs.

I can sit here and say, "yeah, the Umkhonto EIR with Saab Giraffe AMB is awesome", but it may have not been available or within the PN's budget. It's unfortunate, but it's how things are - now, we should try and analyze what the PN is seeking to achieve.

4 x Milgem at $250 mil = $1000 mil
2 x Type 54 at $350 mil = $700 mil

Getting loans approved from China would not have been something new either.

Again, what i am emphasizing on is the priorities. In case a war breaks out, Type 54 can give the existing fleet some AAW cover as well, Milgem will look elsewhere to get itself protected (and there wont be any vessel for that purpose in PN fleet).

Anyway, as i mentioned earlier, i am just stating my point of view. To me it seems that AAW should have been put first, over the need (that too is important) of increasing the numbers. This way at least the fleet would have secured some good air defense cover. As it stands now, till we acquire some good AAW frigates with SAM ranging 80-100 Km, we are pretty much helpless when it comes to air defense. In short, to my mind, MILGEM do not addresses THE MOST PRESSING NEED of our surface fleet.

 

[cabatli_53]

Maybe Pakisani Navy wants a fleet whose mission requirements are sharply seperated among eachothers.

-Corvettes from Turkey with totally submarine hunting, underwater warfare capability and limited air coverage
-Frigates from China with heavy strike capability and limited self defence capability
-AAW large frigates like Tf-2000 with long range sensors/radars and huge SAM missile arsenal on board with total air coverage and limited underwater warfare capabilities dominating the aerial region where stationed to protect all other naval assets.

I think It is also possible and logical in terms of cost saving and effentiveness.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Sir when i say that i will prefer two Type 54 over 4 Milgem with no air defense, i am keeping in mind the PN fleet. We have four F22p frigates. Two frigates along with one Type 54 will make a decent patrol formation with good air defense cover. We can have two similar patrol formations. Also we can gradually add more ships of Milgem class to increase the number of patrol formations OR to increase the number of ships in that patrol formation. However at current point of time, it is good air defense cover that our surface fleet lack and that is what MILGEMS fail to provide. That is why i say that i will prefer Type 54 as they will add and bring a capability that we lack while MIGEM does not. Otherwise, i understand that it is great to diversify and also the fact that Turkey have a bright naval future. That is why i say that it will make sense if our ships are equipped with a half decent SAM AND if this order is followed up with bigger and better ships from that "bright future"

indeed but i think the chinese are moving to the type 057 frigate which has solid state radars.

anyway china is a more suited partner than turkey as even the turks cant offer the frigate as they cant supply the sea sparrow to pakistan due to restrictions, hence the selection of the corvette over the frigate.
the chinese are more open and cost effective price per tonne wise. the turks are moving to create indigenous tech that would allow them to have no such restrictions.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

4 x Milgem at $250 mil = $1000 mil
2 x Type 54 at $350 mil = $700 mil

Getting loans approved from China would not have been something new either.

Again, what i am emphasizing on is the priorities. In case a war breaks out, Type 54 can give the existing fleet some AAW cover as well, Milgem will look elsewhere to get itself protected (and there wont be any vessel for that purpose in PN fleet).

Anyway, as i mentioned earlier, i am just stating my point of view. To me it seems that AAW should have been put first, over the need (that too is important) of increasing the numbers. This way at least the fleet would have secured some good air defense cover. As it stands now, till we acquire some good AAW frigates with SAM ranging 80-100 Km, we are pretty much helpless when it comes to air defense. In short, to my mind, MILGEM do not addresses THE MOST PRESSING NEED of our surface fleet.

2 Type 054As assuming having one active AAW ship at sea is worthwhile, otherwise, the PN would look at the cost of 4 - i.e. $1.4 bn. Besides, what air cover is the Type 054A going to provide? With one ship at sea (with another docked as a reserve or in supply/maintenance), we're talking about a 40-70 km radius reliant on one ship. What's to stop the IN and IAF from just avoiding that blip entirely? Ultimately, it seems the PN will rely on the PAF to provide top cover.

 

[Arsalan]

2 Type 054As assuming having one active AAW ship at sea is worthwhile, otherwise, the PN would look at the cost of 4 - i.e. $1.4 bn. Besides, what air cover is the Type 054A going to provide? With one ship at sea (with another docked as a reserve or in supply/maintenance), we're talking about a 40-70 km radius reliant on one ship. What's to stop the IN and IAF from just avoiding that blip entirely? Ultimately, it seems the PN will rely on the PAF to provide top cover.

Better than nothing wont you say?

Look, i will try and explain what i am saying here, it is not that MILGEM are 5hit, they are not!! They may be EXCELLENT platforms for what they do. What i am pointing out is that is what they do actually the same thing that what we need, ON PRIORITY. It is like i always said that for PB, sub-surface capabilities should always be a priority. Just like that, in surface fleet, decent AAW frigates should be a priority to protect or offer some sort of protection to the fleet formations/groups out in the open sea. Once acquired, we can then gradually increase the number of ships in such formations and may be even increase the NUMBER OF FORMATIONS/Groups for better protections. Again, just my point of view.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Better than nothing wont you say?

Look, i will try and explain what i am saying here, it is not that MILGEM are 5hit, they are not!! They may be EXCELLENT platforms for what they do. What i am pointing out is that is what they do actually the same thing that what we need, ON PRIORITY. It is like i always said that for PB, sub-surface capabilities should always be a priority. Just like that, in surface fleet, decent AAW frigates should be a priority to protect or offer some sort of protection to the fleet formations/groups out in the open sea. Once acquired, we can then gradually increase the number of ships in such formations and may be even increase the NUMBER OF FORMATIONS/Groups for better protections. Again, just my point of view.

"better than nothing..." depends on whether the something is actually offering more than the nothing. If it was a question of securing 4 AAW-capable ships, then you'd be right as the PN would have AAW coverage spread across a wider area. However, if it's 2 ships - i.e. with only one at sea - then what is the value of having AAW coverage in one confined space that, if identified by the enemy, will either be saturated with attacks or just ignored?

It sounds like the PN will call the PAF for air cover...

If this is what the PN will have to resort to anyways, then why not opt to spread the AShW and ASW load through more ships? More ASW ships = better coverage against invasive submarines, which are a threat to Pakistan just as much - if not more - they are a threat to India.

 

[ziaulislam]

I respectfully differ. If this is the case, there were better options available. MILGEM do not offers ANYTHING over the other options. That is what i have been saying since the news about interest first surfaced YEARS ago. They just add numbers, coastal defense ships at best with no adequate self-defense mechanism. Frankly speaking, i would take two Type 54 frigates over 4 Milgem boats ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. They will give us the much needed, the DESPERATELY needed air-defense umbrella. Without that, the surface fleets are not going to survive for too long. Ada class do not address the most dire need of our surface fleet.


Milgem WITH Ram is not much different either. Considering that the Blk-I gives 8-10 Km air defense range.

Milgem only makes sense if:

1. The first four, or at least two of them come with a 16 cell VLS housing Hisar-O or comparable range missiles. AND
   
2. The order is followed up with TF2000 frigates.

@Penguin ? What will you say dear?

They dont address the issue but with RAM u expect it to perform as good as F22

Problem is whole thought process of air force providing air cover is flawed, as air force is under its own stress

 

[ziaulislam]

I'd like AAW too. I was hoping for the LF-2400 - or even I-Class - but there are factors that we don't know about affecting the final decision.

There's money or lack thereof. Ultimately, this deal is happening thanks to Turkey offering a loan for a portion of the deal, and each MILGEM is still costing $250 m a ship. Each Type 054A would have run Thailand like $350 m a ship, which would have seen higher operating costs as well.

There is also the issue of finding sensors and weapons that provide the biggest bang for the buck for the longest period of time. The Type 054A is an AAW-capable ship, yes, but the HQ-16 is a SALH-guided SAM system. The industry is shifting to quad-packed SAMs with terminal seekers. The PN could order Type 054As with HQ-16s today and receive them at a time when China itself begins selling faster and stealthier ships with terminal seeker SAMs.

I can sit here and say, "yeah, the Umkhonto EIR with Saab Giraffe AMB is awesome", but it may have not been available or within the PN's budget. It's unfortunate, but it's how things are - now, we should try and analyze what the PN is seeking to achieve.

I think issue is budget .the system it self would have cost another 300-400 million dollars. Solution is JV with someone to get a single SAM system

 

[cabatli_53]

SSM official page names the ship as Milgem Ada class corvette. Final official deal will be done in 30 June 2017 in Pakistan.

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/PressReleases/Sayfalar/20170510_MILGEM.aspx

 

[YeBeWarned]

Probably neither. When they say its a PN-specific MILGEM, it probably isnt a different design (ala LF-2400), rather different weapons (FL-3000N instead of RAM, Possibly even replacing Harpoon with C-802A or Atacama). I would be surprised if US released RAM for PN. It would be good for PN if FL-3000N was also to receive an upgrade to around 20km which would be very good for these vessels.

But the dummy it shows in picture is of the basic version of Ada Class corvette , it was not LF-2400 model ( sadly ) , the basic Ada comes with RAM so don't you think they might have already talked or get American NoC on delivering RAM to PN ? what its gonna hurt anyway ? block-1 RAM is 9KM which is similar to FM-90 or FL-3000N but which ever we chose will it be quad packed ? if PN misses the VLS it will be a mistake , milgem is a good Corvette but our rival Naval Arm is much stronger than we think, and it can't be counter just with HQ-7 or RAM-block1 ..we need something more than 15-20KM to give respected Air defense to our surface fleet

 

[YeBeWarned]

SSM official page names the ship as Milgem Ada class corvette. Final official deal will be done in 30 June 2017 in Pakistan.

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/PressReleases/Sayfalar/20170510_MILGEM.aspx

The Ship is indeed beautiful
bro is it Possible that PN will opted for inducting Chinese FD-3000N if US refuse to sell RAM to PN ? and if yes, than can this Ship with its existing design and hull accommodate 2 RAM launchers ? @Quwa @Arsalan ?