Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Taygibay]

@Henri & @Tay: je vous remercie beaucoup!
(Je manquais l'arrière-plan sur ce modèle)

YVW and - Il me manquait [ le contexte de ( basic transl.) / des informations sur ] ce modèle.

Bonjour chez vous, Tay.

 

[Penguin]

The diameter is quite different with Babur being being bulkier ( having larger dia) than the C602!Also it is important to mention that there is at least ONE internet page that mentioned the C602 dia to be same as that of Babur at about 0.53m.

Length is however same at about 7m (including booster)

If Babur is supposed to be torpedotube launched by submarines, then -given PN has only subs with 533mm tubes - Babur cannot be much fatter than C602. Worst case: PN has 650mm tubes on the new Chinese subs. We know C802A can be submarine tube launched, but I'm not sure about there being a submaringe launched C602. In the absense of the latter, arguments are in favor of Babur being lesser diameter.

Babur
Length 6.25 m (7 m with booster)
Diameter 0.52 m (missile body)
Wingspan 2.67 m
Weight <1,500 kg

The YJ-62 is a conventional cruise missile design, with mid-body wings which deploy following launch. The engine inlet is mounted slightly forward of the cruciform tail fins. The missile is 6.1m long, without the 0.9m launch booster, and weights 1,140kg. The solid propellant booster weighs an additional 210kg.

"The YJ-62 cruise missile is a PLAN analogue to the anti-shipping variants of the RGM-109 Tomahawk/MRASM. The weapon has a similar general configuration to the Tomahawk family, but employs a unique fixed scoop inlet for the air breathing engine.
Cited specifications include a length of 6.1/7.0 metres, launch mass of 1,140/1,350 kg, warhead mass of 300 kg, cruise speed of 0.9 Mach, range for turbojet variant of 280 km / 150 NMI, and dual mode anti-ship and coastal target capability similar to later blocks of the Harpoon."
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Cruise-Missiles.html

The 290 km-range CM-602G land-attack variant, which has a 480 kg warhead as opposed to the 300 kg warhead carried by the C-602.
http://www.janes.com/article/59003/...oyed-yj-62-anti-ship-missiles-to-woody-island

Of China’s foremost indigenous ASCMs, the YJ-82 and YJ-83/83K are the most widely deployed, while the YJ-62 is among the most advanced. The indigenous YJ-62 is very similar to the YJ-83 technologically and largely reflects an evolutionary change in size. With the exception of the Type 052C destroyers, the YJ-62 is only deployed in mobile coastal defense batteries.
http://ndupress.ndu.edu/Media/News/...ssessing-chinese-cruise-missile-developments/

 

[Arsalan]

If Babur is supposed to be torpedotube launched by submarines, then -given PN has only subs with 533mm tubes - Babur cannot be much fatter than C602. Worst case: PN has 650mm tubes on the new Chinese subs.

Babur
Length 6.25 m (7 m with booster)
Diameter 0.52 m (missile body)
Wingspan 2.67 m
Weight <1,500 kg

The YJ-62 is a conventional cruise missile design, with mid-body wings which deploy following launch. The engine inlet is mounted slightly forward of the cruciform tail fins. The missile is 6.1m long, without the 0.9m launch booster, and weights 1,140kg. The solid propellant booster weighs an additional 210kg.

"The YJ-62 cruise missile is a PLAN analogue to the anti-shipping variants of the RGM-109 Tomahawk/MRASM. The weapon has a similar general configuration to the Tomahawk family, but employs a unique fixed scoop inlet for the air breathing engine.
Cited specifications include a length of 6.1/7.0 metres, launch mass of 1,140/1,350 kg, warhead mass of 300 kg, cruise speed of 0.9 Mach, range for turbojet variant of 280 km / 150 NMI, and dual mode anti-ship and coastal target capability similar to later blocks of the Harpoon."
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Cruise-Missiles.html

Well actually the dia of Babur is reported at 0.53 and 0.54m and that makes it a perfect fit for those 533mm torpedo tubes. It is the C602 that is reported "thinner" with dia of about 0.36m. However as i stated, there sure is one page that mentions/claims the dia to be 0.54m (same as Babur that is)

 

[Penguin]

YVW and - Il me manquait [ le contexte de ( basic transl.) / des informations sur ] ce modèle.

Bonjour chez vous, Tay.

A cours de langue française totalement gratuit
Il est une belle journée de printemps ici

Well actually the dia of Babur is reported at 0.53 and 0.54m and that makes it a perfect fit for those 533mm torpedo tubes. It is the C602 that is reported "thinner" with dia of about 0.36m. However as i stated, there sure is one page that mentions/claims the dia to be 0.54m (same as Babur that is)

I've searched far and wide and have as yet to find source stating c602/yj-62 diameter in the public domain. So, please share is possible. Possibly that 36cm is from YJ-82/C802.

C802/YJ-82
Weight 715 kg
Length 6.392 m
Diameter 36 cm

Perhaps diameter can be deduced in relation to size of other objects (e.g. toolbox on the floor)

Or monitor on desk

Or people in front of launch tubes.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-c602-c802a-and.html#.WNEPWaJFeUk

IMHO YJ62 is fatter than YJ82/83.

CM-708UNA Submarine Launched Anti-Ship Missile consists in a CM-708 anti-ship missile (also designated C-802, the export version of the YJ-8) with folding wings and a booster at its back encapsulated inside a torpedo-like capsule.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...una-submarine-launched-anti-ship-missile.html
This is for a regular 533mm heavyweight (submarine) torpedo tube.

Here C802A with tail-end of C602

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/zhuhai-air-show-2012.t6187/page-5

YJ-12/CM-803 is 0.756 m

http://www . defence talk . com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/CM-302-anti-ship-missile.jpg
http://www. defence talk . com/china-promotes-worlds-best-anti-ship-missile-at-zhuhai-show-68548/

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/3877.html

http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1107/c90000-9137944.html

 

[Arsalan]

A cours de langue française totalement gratuit
Il est une belle journée de printemps ici


I've searched far and wide and have as yet to find source stating c602/yj-62 diameter in the public domain. So, please share is possible. Possibly that 36cm is from YJ-82/C802.

C802/YJ-82
Weight 715 kg
Length 6.392 m
Diameter 36 cm

Perhaps diameter can be deduced in relation to size of other objects (e.g. toolbox on the floor)

Or monitor on desk

Or people in front of launch tubes.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-c602-c802a-and.html#.WNEPWaJFeUk

IMHO YJ62 is fatter than YJ82/83.

CM-708UNA Submarine Launched Anti-Ship Missile consists in a CM-708 anti-ship missile (also designated C-802, the export version of the YJ-8) with folding wings and a booster at its back encapsulated inside a torpedo-like capsule.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...una-submarine-launched-anti-ship-missile.html
This is for a regular 533mm heavyweight (submarine) torpedo tube.

Here C802A with tail-end of C602

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/zhuhai-air-show-2012.t6187/page-5

YJ-12/CM-803 is 0.756 m

http://www . defence talk . com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/CM-302-anti-ship-missile.jpg
http://www. defence talk . com/china-promotes-worlds-best-anti-ship-missile-at-zhuhai-show-68548/

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/3877.html

http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1107/c90000-9137944.html

Here, this is a link which indicates the C602 diameter to be 0.54m.
http://defenseupdates.blogspot.com/2012/11/c-602-and-cm-602g-subsonic-missiles.html


As for the 0.36m dia, it was being discussed on this very forum and i am juts trying to locate that discussion. However since you have not mentioned C802 as well, i might have confused that 0.36m thing with C602!!

Anyway, do check the link i shared and it is the only page i can find on internet right now which gives the diameter of C602.

As for comparison of the dia with other objects, instead of comparing it to the launch tube or the people or monitor, i guess it will be best to compare it with some other missile system. Something we know exact dimensions of. I am looking for such a pic, it might be there from some air-show or other exhibitions. Will share if i can find something.

EDIT:
Here is one.

CM-302 is reported to have a 0.4m diameter as far as i can remember, right? Compare that with the C602 in background. Though this IS NOT ACCURATE by any means but the C602 looks a little thinner that CM302

 

[cabatli_53]

i think its best to wait, any news will be given most likely in idef 2017 which will be in may of this year in turkey.
as for the new frigate design you showed earlier, i dont thing its a possibility as is only a conceptual design and by the time its ready, its 2023. the Istanbul class is the best option from turkey.

or the type 057 from china.

i expect the type 057 to replace the 054a by about 2020-2023 so the Istanbul class may be purchased in small numbers [4] whilst there would be more type 057's and by that time the defense budget would have increased.

Detail design phase of Istanbul vlass frigate is completed and specifications are modified in accordance with new requirements. It is now around 3-4m longer (from 110m to 113.2m) than first revealed design. She is under production in military shipyard.

 

[Gryphon]

CM-302 is reported to have a 0.4m diameter as far as i can remember, right? Compare that with the C602 in background. Though this IS NOT ACCURATE by any means but the C602 looks a little thinner that CM302

This one is official

@cabatli_53

Any latest news in Turkish media regarding MILGEM talks with Pakistan ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

Detail design phase of Istanbul vlass frigate is completed and specifications are modified in accordance with new requirements. It is now around 3-4m longer (from 110m to 113.2m) than first revealed design. She is under production in military shipyard.

i know quwa is insistent pakistan is negotiating for the corvette version as said in the statement. but what do you think? do you think he meant the frigate instead? also any updates.

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53

Any latest news in Turkish media regarding MILGEM talks with Pakistan ?

It is believed that Milgem deal with Pakistan as a certain thing. Some report telling that Two Milgem deal will be signed for two unnamed countries in May 2017. One of them is Pakistan i believe.

 

[HannibalBarca]

It is believed as a certain thing. Some report telling that Two Milgem deal will be signed for two unnamed countries in May 2017. One of them is Pakistan i believe.

And the second?

 

[cabatli_53]

i know quwa is insistent pakistan is negotiating for the corvette version as said in the statement. but what do you think? do you think he meant the frigate instead? also any updates.

In statements, Turkish side offers totally open Milgem like structure that Pakistan is going to shape from radars to missiles in accordance with own requirements. It will be totally Pakistani demands whether it is going to be a modified Istanbul class or Milgem or not but articles mostly mention corvettes for Pakistan. We will see...

And the second?

May be Saudi Arabia. I don't know really..

 

[scionofPakwattan]

I am following lot of Turkish Defense Journalists on twitter many of them are saying this. Also a friend works at BOL news he also says expect some defense deals to be signed during this visit. He is proving to be quite right for past few weeks.

What is your twitter handle @Zarvan?

 

[Zarvan]

What is your twitter handle @Zarvan?

https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989

 

[Penguin]

Here, this is a link which indicates the C602 diameter to be 0.54m.
http://defenseupdates.blogspot.com/2012/11/c-602-and-cm-602g-subsonic-missiles.html

Thanks. Did see that one, but overlooked the diameter mention ... Doh!

As for comparison of the dia with other objects, instead of comparing it to the launch tube or the people or monitor, i guess it will be best to compare it with some other missile system. Something we know exact dimensions of. I am looking for such a pic, it might be there from some air-show or other exhibitions. Will share if i can find something.

I like this one for comparing with known object. I.e. toolbox

Kingtoyo Metal Toolbox
L x W x H : 400mm x 195mm x 200mm
Extra long Three Layer Metal Toolbox
L x W x H : 495mm x 230mm x 200mm
http://www.lelong.com.my/king-toyo-...hick-papahardware-I1337355-2007-01-Sale-I.htm
View attachment 385497

1 main compartment with (LxWxH): 575 x 215 x 100 mm
2x2 extendable compartments with division (LxWxH): 575 x 115 x 50 mm
> l=575mm, w=215mm, h=200mm

https://picclick.co.uk/Blue-Metal-Tool-Box-Toolbox-Large-580mm-Tool-142060012223.html

http://www.11street.my/productdetail/metal-cantilever-3-tiers-5-trays-home-mechanic-19345911

Toolbox
Average width is 21.2cm
Average height is 20.6cm
Let's say: 21x21cm
So, how many times does the height of the toolchest fit into the missile body?
54cm = 21cm x 2.57
Is that about right?

It doesn't look like the air intake is (fully) folding, or the tail fins completely fold, hence the diameter or the canister is only a rough indicator for missile diameter.

 

[Penguin]

i know quwa is insistent pakistan is negotiating for the corvette version as said in the statement. but what do you think? do you think he meant the frigate instead? also any updates.

There is very little difference between (heavy) corvette and (light) frigate, so lets not state blind on that terminology. For the same ship, depending on what weapons/sensors fitted, the terminology indicates the combat environment it can independently survive in.
@cabatli_53, what - if anything - can you tell about LF-2400 in relation to Ada, resp. Istanbul class ships? The latter are 'set' designs, the former imho is an export variant, which may have been tailored to better fit demands on the export market (e.g. see propulsion: all diesel)

This one is official

Exactly the kind of image I was hoping for, thx.