Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Penguin]

Tay,

The difference OPV and corvette is NUMP and NUMC (same hull)
Designs are scalable. See Damen Sigma. So, a frigate really can be a frigate rather than an uparmed OPV.

 

[Taygibay]

We call all our first line ships frigates nowadays in La Royale.
An OPV is smaller and less powerful as the Adroit. Your terminology
is obviously a plot to hide the true power of your navy for invasion
and ensuing world domination purposes and it must be revealed to
the World before it's too late and no, I wont stay silent . . .

 

[Gryphon]

Pakistan is developing a shipborne system which can fire LACMs. The frigates currently in service do not have VLS capability. The launcher recently seen on official illustrations of the fourth Azmat class FAC appears to be Chinese. (Zarb ? C-602 ?)

I believe PN will use the MILGEM corvettes primarily for land attack role (like the Buyan-M class corvette which can fire Kalibr-NK LACM).

 

[ghazi768]

You would end up with a ship with no SAM, just guns and HARPOON. Bolting on LY-60 is not an improvement.

indeed.. but I never said there will be no SAM.

 

[Tank131]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa), @Penguin is correct that on the LF-2400, you would still need to lengthen the ship for a proper VLS. If you want to move the gun forward amd put a vls behind it, you will throw off the balance. Also you have to see what spaces are located underneath the vls where you will need to have a minimum of 4.3 - 5 meters unless a portion of the vls sticks above the deck (which is ok), but you will still lose 1 deck worth of space at least, below the vls, so that will need reconfigured. Why spend more $$ doing this when the I-class has solved the issue for you? Also if you look at the LF 2400 schematic, it clearly shows what seems to be a RAM launcher above the hangar which is likely the SAM it refers to.

 

[Blue Marlin]

what would the price difference be between the tf-100 and the type 057?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan is developing a shipborne system which can fire LACMs. The frigates currently in service do not have VLS capability. The launcher recently seen on official illustrations of the fourth Azmat class FAC appears to be Chinese. (Zarb ? C-602 ?)

I believe PN will use the MILGEM corvettes primarily for land attack role (like the Buyan-M class corvette which can fire Kalibr-NK LACM).

The MILGEM Ada as-is would be used for patrolling the EEZ and SLOCs in peacetime, and then switch to A2/AD ASW and AShW from littoral waters. That is essentially what we can expect without VLS and decent AAW coverage, the latter being deferred to the PAF.

Here's hoping for MILGEM I-Class (w/VLS) instead of MILGEM Ada...

 

[Gryphon]

The MILGEM Ada as-is would be used for patrolling the EEZ and SLOCs in peacetime, and then switch to A2/AD ASW and AShW from littoral waters.

Where do you expect the ship-borne system being developed by DGMP will be used? I believe 'system' refers to an 8-round VLS for Babur LACM.

The Russian Buyan-M corvette doesn't have ASW and AShW capability. Since MILGEM is larger ship, Pakistan could use Zarb (C-602 ?) or Babur ASCM instead of Harpoon (DGMP is also developing a launcher for AShW role).

An 8-round VLS SAM (even if changes are made with MILGEM Ada or LF-2400) will have limited significance when the enemy has the numbers advantage in the air as well as at the (sea) surface.

Dedicated AAW frigates should be considered for this role. For peacetime patrol of SLOCs and EEZ, smaller ships like FACs (PN is interested in 4-6 more) are better than 2400-ton corvettes.

(* I read your article on Quwa.org where you speculate DGMP is developing the 'system' for submarines purchased from China. With the Agosta 90B, Babur SLCM was launched from torpedo tubes. Same will be the case with Chinese submarines. )

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Where do you expect the ship-borne system being developed by DGMP will be used? I believe 'system' refers to an 8-round VLS for Babur LACM.

The Russian Buyan-M corvette doesn't have ASW and AShW capability. Since MILGEM is larger ship, Pakistan could use Zarb (C-602 ?) or Babur ASCM instead of Harpoon (DGMP is also developing a launcher for AShW role).

An 8-round VLS SAM (even if changes are made with MILGEM Ada or LF-2400) will have limited significance when the enemy has the numbers advantage in the air as well as at the (sea) surface.

Dedicated AAW frigates should be considered for this role. For peacetime patrol of SLOCs and EEZ, smaller ships like FACs (PN is interested in 4-6 more) are better than 2400-ton corvettes.

(* I read your article on Quwa.org where you speculate DGMP is developing the 'system' for submarines purchased from China. With the Agosta 90B, Babur SLCM was launched from torpedo tubes. Same will be the case with Chinese submarines. )

Thus far it appears that the ship-launch system is a slant-tube for the 4th Azmat-class FAC (see pic). Not sure if it can apply to VLS considering the completion date was scheduled for this or next year.

As for AAW. No one disagrees over the need for AAW-capable frigates, but this is a theoretical discussion because it isn't on the PN's table. Right now, we have the MILGEM Ada on the table (which will be decided - yes or no - after July), and it seems we won't get a VLS-capable variant. So the role the PN is planning for it is to patrol the EEZ and SLOCs, and to engage in wartime ASW and AShW.

As for whether FACs can do the same EEZ and SLOC patrol job, I disagree. FACs aren't typically designed for that range or endurance, not unless you intend to engage in very frequent re-supply runs. FACs are generally designed for littoral A2/AD missions, so designers emphasize speed and weapon load-out over range and endurance.

 

[Penguin]

hmm... The Navantia Avante 1800 is beginning to look really good now ...

I can see it still can be downloaded from their site but is that still being marketed?
http://www.navantia.es/interior.php?id_sec=3&id_pag=265

indeed.. but I never said there will be no SAM.

Which one then and where?

 

[Penguin]

We call all our first line ships frigates nowadays in La Royale.
An OPV is smaller and less powerful as the Adroit. Your terminology
is obviously a plot to hide the true power of your navy for invasion
and ensuing world domination purposes and it must be revealed to
the World before it's too late and no, I wont stay silent . . .

Our OPV (Holland) has a larger displacement than the M-Frigate the preceeded it ...

Holland-class OPVs have a tonnage of 3,750 tons, are 108.4 metres (355 ft 8 in) in length, 16 metres (52 ft 6 in) in beam and have a draft of 4.55 metres (14 ft 11 in). Doorman-class frigates have a tonnage of 3,320 tons, are 122.3 metres (401ft) in length, 14.4 metres (47ft) in beam and have a draft of 6.1 metres (20ft).

Differences in dimensions indicate different hull forms which, coupled to different propulsion sets (combined electric or diesel aka CODELOD v. combined diesel or gasturbine aka CODOG), lead to different top speeds (21.5kn v. 30kn) and economic speed / range (5,000nmi at 15kn v. 5,000nmi at 18 kn)

Source: http://www.ssi.tu-harburg.de/doc/we...pit/dokumente/Proceeding_Compit2012_Liege.pdf (page 191). See also http://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/model-vervanger-m-fregatten.html

Pakistan is developing a shipborne system which can fire LACMs. The frigates currently in service do not have VLS capability. The launcher recently seen on official illustrations of the fourth Azmat class FAC appears to be Chinese. (Zarb ? C-602 ?)

I believe PN will use the MILGEM corvettes primarily for land attack role (like the Buyan-M class corvette which can fire Kalibr-NK LACM).

No, not going to happen. You'd need a bigger ship (VL Launcher depth + adequate number of cells dictate multiple VLS units for minimum of 8 land attack missiles plus at least 8-16 self-defence SAM)

Where do you expect the ship-borne system being developed by DGMP will be used? I believe 'system' refers to an 8-round VLS for Babur LACM.

The Russian Buyan-M corvette doesn't have ASW and AShW capability. Since MILGEM is larger ship, Pakistan could use Zarb (C-602 ?) or Babur ASCM instead of Harpoon (DGMP is also developing a launcher for AShW role).

An 8-round VLS SAM (even if changes are made with MILGEM Ada or LF-2400) will have limited significance when the enemy has the numbers advantage in the air as well as at the (sea) surface.

Dedicated AAW frigates should be considered for this role. For peacetime patrol of SLOCs and EEZ, smaller ships like FACs (PN is interested in 4-6 more) are better than 2400-ton corvettes.

(* I read your article on Quwa.org where you speculate DGMP is developing the 'system' for submarines purchased from China. With the Agosta 90B, Babur SLCM was launched from torpedo tubes. Same will be the case with Chinese submarines. )

Incorrect, the VLS on Buyan can launch all members of the Club family of missiles, which includes 2 anti-ship variants (3M54K, 3M54T), 2 land-attack variants (3M14K, 3M14T) and could also use a 40km ASROC-like variant (91RTE2, available for export).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

Aside from the requisite radars, it comes equipped with Anapa-M sonar suite (Anapa-ME for export). The 100 mm A-190 gun can be used against both sea and air targets, as can the AK 630-2 Duet 30mm twin gatling. It also has 2 Gibka systems, with 6 Igla each.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyan-class_corvette

It's UKSK VLS goes 4 decks deep easily (can accommodate missiles as long as 8.9m)

 

[Gryphon]

Thus far it appears that the ship-launch system is a slant-tube for the 4th Azmat-class FAC (see pic). Not sure if it can apply to VLS considering the completion date was scheduled for this or next year.

The image shows an anti-ship missile launcher which appears to be for Zarb (C-602 ?) missile. Is there any launcher (except VLS systems) which can fire LACM's over several hundred km ?

As MoDP reported, the system being developed by DGMP is for firing LACM & AShM. IMO, it is similar to the 8-round VLS of the Buyan-M class corvette.

Buyan M firing a Klub AShM

No, not going to happen. You'd need a bigger ship (VL Launcher depth + adequate number of cells dictate multiple VLS units for minimum of 8 land attack missiles plus at least 8-16 self-defence SAM)

Can't MILGEM Ada or LF-2400 be modified to adjust a VLS similar to Buyan M ?

 

[Penguin]

The image shows an anti-ship missile launcher which appears to be for Zarb (C-602 ?) missile. Is there any launcher (except VLS systems) which can fire LACM's over several hundred km ?

As MoDP reported, the system being developed by DGMP is for firing LACM & AShM. IMO, it is similar to the 8-round VLS of the Buyan-M class corvette.

I see no reason to why a launch system for firing LACM & AShM mecessarily means a VLS: as the various available ways to launch members of the Club missile family illustrates. See http://concern-agat.ru/en/productio...missile-systems/club-u-modular-missile-system.

Azmat beam is 8.76 m.

YJ-62/C602
Length 6.1m (without booster); 7m (with booster).
Diameter: 0.54 m
Weight: 1,240kg (without booster), 1,350 kilogram (with booster)

Antiship version

Land attack version

Ship launch containers

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...missile_launchers_on_CNS_Haikou_(DDG-171).jpg

Type 052C launch

Vehicle launch containers

Buyan M firing a Klub AShM

Can't MILGEM Ada or LF-2400 be modified to adjust a VLS similar to Buyan M ?

Buyan to Buyan-M required a complete redesign and increased ship size and displacement

Displacement

• 500 tons standard (project 21630)
• 949 tons full (project 21631) (= x 1.9)

Length:

• 62 m (203 ft) (21630)
• 75 m (246 ft) (21631) (= x 1.21)

Beam:

• 9.6 m (31 ft) (21630)
• 11 m (36 ft) (21631) (= x 1.15)

Height: 6.57 m (22 ft)

Draft:

• 2 m (7 ft) (21630)
• 2.5 m (8 ft) (21631) (= x 1.25)

It's not 'a modification', it is a complete redesign.

 

[Tank131]

Again, if you are going to redesign a ship, why not take the redesign that already is present? There are a few things that dont make sense to me about this deal.
1. What role are you assigning this ship?
If you want it to be a peacekeeping/patrol vessel with anti sub and anti ship capabilities then MILGEM - ADA is overkill. If FAC dont have the required range, why not go for the type 056 or the C-1200 design from delta marine? The will cost less at nearly 1000t less displacement, they carry less crew (78 and 53 respectively vs 93) and overall have similar weapons systems as milgem.

If you want a full fledged warship that is to be Multi-role you need Istanbul class version of MILGEM (if buying from Turkey). Otherwise redesign the C28A with a VLS (which KS&EW is already set up to build given it is based on f-22p).

 

[Penguin]

It's UKSK VLS goes 4 decks deep easily (can accommodate missiles as long as 8.9m)

More likely 5 decks! Namely 9580mm

INS Ranvir VLS for Brahmos

What it looks like internally