Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I agree that Ada class is not useful without some type of point defense missiles at the very least. Though even with a FL-3000N, I think its not a viable solution for PN. The reality is that it will be used to replace type 21s but will add little to their capabilities. To Hence why i say that the Ada is not what PN should be seeking, rather they should go for Istanbul class. PN doesnt have the means to match IN ship for ship, that is why cost effective multirole ships need to be acquired. This reaks of kickbacks being involved as there are 2 better options available for PN in the form of Istanbul class and C28A variants with vls that you yourself showed the model of.



The automation of the turkish ships are better apparently than the chinese ships, but it doesnt matter if the ship is not adding to the PNs capabilities. I doubt US will sell RAM or RAM2 to PN (if we do, pn should get more units to equop Alamghir too) and a 9km range (even 21 cell) is too small a range for a meaningful defense against IN especially when operating along. In Turkish nave these ships will operate with G-class and Istanbul class ships amd eventually with TF-2000, so point defense is reasonable for them. The PN has no vessel wth medium or long range air defense which can provide cover for Ada class.

In all likelihood, the PN is probably going to get 4 skinny Ada corvettes (i.e. not without any fancy gear, mainly for peacetime SLOC protection) for less than US $500m, and then 4 proper frigates from China. Had it been me, I would have gone for just four frigates (I-Class or CSOC Tiger), and then up to eight 1,200-ton corvettes in skinny configuration, but with room for armaments (including VLS) if and when necessary.

 

[Tank131]

Thats a foolish and stupid use of $500m. Does PN have the resources to waste on a peacekeeping vessel alone, let alone the upkeep and crew payments for an additional group of Chinese vessels. They are taking loans from turkey for these vessels and they are not contributing to PNs ability to contribute during wartime. Sounds exactly like what we are experiencing in the USN with the next to useless Litoral combat ships which have poor capabilities and hence are potentially going to be refit.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thats a foolish and stupid use of $500m. Does PN have the resources to waste on a peacekeeping vessel alone, let alone the upkeep and crew payments for an additional group of Chinese vessels. They are taking loans from turkey for these vessels and they are not contributing to PNs ability to contribute during wartime. Sounds exactly like what we are experiencing in the USN with the next to useless Litoral combat ships which have poor capabilities and hence are potentially going to be refit.

They're basically sticking to the pre-2010 plan of having four corvettes for policing the SLOC. They're fixing the interdiction strategy on the new submarines. To be honest, it's also been a while since we even heard about the PN looking at frigates (since the "improved F-22P" days). I'm not sure frigates are a priority. It's unfortunate, I'd much rather just wait a few more years for the I-Class frigate, or skip the Turkish route entirely and go for some CSOC solution.

 

[Tank131]

They're basically sticking to the pre-2010 plan of having four corvettes for policing the SLOC. They're fixing the interdiction strategy on the new submarines. To be honest, it's also been a while since we even heard about the PN looking at frigates (since the "improved F-22P" days). I'm not sure frigates are a priority. It's unfortunate, I'd much rather just wait a few more years for the I-Class frigate, or skip the Turkish route entirely and go for some CSOC solution.

I will say that the notion that they are not adapting to the times is scary. The idea that everthing is antiship interdiction is a frightening dereliction of duty when you consider that INs main AShM is a 300km hypersonic missile which none of your ships will be able to intercept given the longest range missile is 15km. Add to this the fact that the IN will soon field 2 carriers with Mig-29 and you are in for a world of hurt. A chinese solution or the Istanbul class would be a far better choice. I tell you, write it down now, if Ada class is selected it is a treasonous dereliction of duty to the service and a criminal waste of $500m amd someone has recieved a massive kickback. Think about this, the major thing keeping PN afloat now is A90b subs and they werr a massive kickback scheme. This will be far worse. At least those have been useful.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I will say that the notion that they are not adapting to the times is scary. The idea that everthing is antiship interdiction is a frightening dereliction of duty when you consider that INs main AShM is a 300km hypersonic missile which none of your ships will be able to intercept given the longest range missile is 15km. Add to this the fact that the IN will soon field 2 carriers with Mig-29 and you are in for a world of hurt. A chinese solution or the Istanbul class would be a far better choice. I tell you, write it down now, if Ada class is selected it is a treasonous dereliction of duty to the service and a criminal waste of $500m amd someone has recieved a massive kickback. Think about this, the major thing keeping PN afloat now is A90b subs and they werr a massive kickback scheme. This will be far worse. At least those have been useful.

What's that Green Day song? Boulevard of Broken Dreams?

 

[Basel]

I will say that the notion that they are not adapting to the times is scary. The idea that everthing is antiship interdiction is a frightening dereliction of duty when you consider that INs main AShM is a 300km hypersonic missile which none of your ships will be able to intercept given the longest range missile is 15km. Add to this the fact that the IN will soon field 2 carriers with Mig-29 and you are in for a world of hurt. A chinese solution or the Istanbul class would be a far better choice. I tell you, write it down now, if Ada class is selected it is a treasonous dereliction of duty to the service and a criminal waste of $500m amd someone has recieved a massive kickback. Think about this, the major thing keeping PN afloat now is A90b subs and they werr a massive kickback scheme. This will be far worse. At least those have been useful.

PN may field South African SAM or possibly Sea CAMM on Turkish ships if procured. Also DK-10 from China is also good option.

 

[CHI RULES]

Just Ada with Ram block 2 would be nice too, compared to F22P.


There is no point in an ADA acquisition without a point defence missile system. Worst case, you install a 21 round 9km FL-3000N, a Chinese AK-176 copy and a pair of Chinese single 25mm or 30mm cannon. FL-3000N means less range than HQ7 (12-15km, depending on FM-80/90) but better suited to anti-missile role, more ready rounds, ir/rf-homing = fire and forget = engage multiple targets better in quick succession. RAM block 0, 1 equivalent.

Plus, ADA will be less easily detected than F22P, most likely. Do not underestimate the value of that.

With AShM missile ranges being 200-300km or more, there is little change of engaging airborne launch platforms with any SAM. So, the only reason for longer range missile is dealing with supersonic missiles farther out. It still remains better to kill the launch platform than to defend against the munition.

Reality is that PN cannot (and should not attempt) to match IN in numbers or - given lower numbers - role specialization. If you want an AAAW ship, develop a dedicated variant on the same hull, loosing e.g. the helicopter and hanger, in order to install a large VLS farm, long range missiles and appropriate associated sensors. IMHO, large AAW destroyers have no place in PN.

Deat Sir, what options are there for PN in medium range SAMs which may be adopted in future for F22Ps. Further can PN install Chinese HQ16 SAMs on expected frigates to be procured from Turkey.

 

[Path-Finder]

Hazrat @Zarvan another flop from your informants!

 

[Basel]

Deat Sir, what options are there for PN in medium range SAMs which may be adopted in future for F22Ps. Further can PN install Chinese HQ16 SAMs on expected frigates to be procured from Turkey.

DK10 is also Chinese option and is competitor of HQ-16s.

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/4060.html

 

[Sloth 22]

Deat Sir, what options are there for PN in medium range SAMs which may be adopted in future for F22Ps. Further can PN install Chinese HQ16 SAMs on expected frigates to be procured from Turkey.

Possible. [For F22P]
The requirements primarily are the
1) Radar , can be easily done.
2) Integration into the combat system management of the Vessel. Given its origin from China it can also be done. But a new combat management system derived from the Type 054A class should be better. But that will increase the price.

The problem with HQ16 and F22P will be in all probability the place to fit it.

Any Pakistani Navy person who has actually been a part of construction of vessel or its operation can only answer this question with 100% assurance.

[For Ada and derivatives]
The only change would be point 2.
You will have to get Turkey and China on table to upgrade the CMS of the vessels.

 

[Imran Khan]

close this zarvan hope thread PM left turkey already no deal signed

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Hazoor yeh hain wo Zarai , where I want to retire after panama case deal is announced

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hazrat @Zarvan another flop from your informants!

During IDEAS 2016, Turkish officials said that Pakistan will decide on the MILGEM after the start of the new fiscal year in July. The Turkish Gov't is offering a financing plan, but I think the final decision will depend on things such as the selection of subsystems, weapons, helicopters, etc. If possible, the PN would be looking for a balance in cost-effectiveness and performance, as seen in the Agosta 90B upgrade. But I wouldn't be surprised if they either walk away (again) or end up going for thinly configured ships, and then add subsystems and weapons way later.

 

[Blue Marlin]

so errrr have they signed for them?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

so errrr have they signed for them?

As per Turkish officials during IDEAS 2016, Pakistan will decide around July 2017.