Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What ever policy PN has is clearly not effective so far just like we faced disaster during 1971 war. (Attack on Port/Oil stores along with destruction of other naval assets). Now perhaps we have enough assets to sop any naval incursion however our SAMS deployed both on naval ships and at port are insufficient to counter any any air attack or to intercept missiles. Our F21 calss frigate numbered 5 are now almost incapable even to survive themselves meanwhile F22s have on short range SAM, the OHP even has no SAM coverage.

In 1971 Pakistan was severely lacking in anti-access and area-denial capabilities, especially in the face of a revolutionary new weapon - anti-ship missiles. Things have changed since then. The Hangor-class submarine program is being pursued along with many FACs precisely to guard littoral waters and to prevent close-up attacks to the shoreline and upon coastal assets. Frigates aren't necessary for this role, but for protecting SLOCs and guarding merchant ships. But Pakistan only has like 8 or 9 merchant ships, so what are the frigates protecting in war, exactly? Their main use (for now) would be to guard the submarines from aerial threats, but if the Navy believes the Arabian Sea is large enough to let 11 submarines freely move around, then we'll need to live with that decision. It isn't invalid, but just very debatable.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

As No deal was done, then why discussing for nothing.
discussion ends up here.Kindly close the thread.

 

[Tank131]

In 1971 Pakistan was severely lacking in anti-access and area-denial capabilities, especially in the face of a revolutionary new weapon - anti-ship missiles. Things have changed since then. The Hangor-class submarine program is being pursued along with many FACs precisely to guard littoral waters and to prevent close-up attacks to the shoreline and upon coastal assets. Frigates aren't necessary for this role, but for protecting SLOCs and guarding merchant ships. But Pakistan only has like 8 or 9 merchant ships, so what are the frigates protecting in war, exactly? Their main use (for now) would be to guard the submarines from aerial threats, but if the Navy believes the Arabian Sea is large enough to let 11 submarines freely move around, then we'll need to live with that decision. It isn't invalid, but just very debatable.

I dont agree that Frigates have no role on protecting the coast. The reality is that the biggest threat IN poses to Pakistan is through the air. 2 carriers will be fielding 26 Mig-29k each and numerous frigates and destroy which are capable of launching attacks on surface fleet amd land targets from 300km away. In time of war only 1 JF-17 squad will be dedicated to the navy and it plus a few Orions and 3 ATR-72 will be the only aircover PN has. It's surface boats will be effective for maybe a day until IAF and IN shoot down all PN aor assets and then the boats will be made short work of. The subs will last longer but how long is the question. 11 subs can be dangerous but eventually they will be cleaned from the board by sub hunting aircraft (posidens and helis). The surface fleet must be able to mount an air defense in order to hold the coast for any length of time. Pakistan's big saving grace is its connected by land to its biggest supporter and ally.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

another rumor news thread

 

[MastanKhan]

We should pay attention to what officials say regarding known programs.

The MILGEM and T-129 are not all that secret where final MoUs will be signed as a surprise, we have STM and TAI people giving clear ideas as to where both programs stand.

STM thinks the MILGEM will be signed after July, and TAI is saying "coming months" - neither is actually concrete yet, but officials on both sides are actively negotiating and trying to work a plan.

Pakistan took 4-5 years to work out the Hangor submarine program with China. The new POF rifle program is clearly taking years. Even the F-16 Block-52+ deal went from 2004 to 2008 before contracts were signed.

Hi,

And this clearly shows that the pak military is ill prepared and not ready to make the procurement in a timely manner.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Rumor thread ...

Ye Nawaz sharif will not sign a big defence deal


Defence Deal Under Musharaf

• 45+ F16 MLU package
  
• New 18 F16 brand new C/D
  
• AWACs from Sweeden
• AWACs from China (Insurance policy move)
• F22P frigate (4 Ships)
• 1 OHP frigate (Refurbished)
  
• Orion Surveilance Planes at Oceans
  
• Promise to recieve Super Cobras post 2015
• Al Khalid Tank Success
• Full Weapon replenishment for F16 , Spare engines etc
  
• J10B deal (36 , 2 Full Top of Line squadrons) - Cancelled deal by 2014

Defence Deal Under Zardari : (5 Wasted years)

• Failed Steel Mills
• Failed Railways
  
• Energy Crisis
• Circular debt
  
• Gas shortages
• Bilawal Graduated from University hopefully

Defence deals under Nawaz Sharif: (3 years Slow Period)

• 3 Choppers from Russia , 3 Choppers from China , 15 from USA (Same ones promised from Musharaf time period not new deal)
  
• F16 deal 12 C/D block plane , cancelled diplomatic failiure to lose FMS status , losing benefits
• Transport Helicopter (Un disclosed figures may be 4-10)

• 1 Oil fleet tanker
• Used old tech 12, F16 pick ups Block A/B
  
• Some patrol ships (Coast guard ships)
• 8 Submarines from China (Good Deal)
• HQ-16 SAM from China (Good Deal)

Pakistan's Strategic Local Projects not related to Governing
Administration may be 80-95% Military planning


Projects Success due to Military

• JF17 Thunder : (83+), Import / Export Orders
  
• Missile programs : Zarb , Shaheen , Ababeel , Anza 2
  
• Nuclear program : Good as ever
  
• Local Ship projects: 3-4 Fast Attack boats projects

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Rumor thread ...

Ye Nawaz sharif will not sign a big defence deal


Defence Deal Under Musharaf

• F16 MLU package
  
• New F16 brand new C/D
  
• AWACs from Sweeden
• AWACs from China (Insurance policy move)
• F22P frigate (4 Ships)
• 1 OHP frigate (Refurbished)
  
• Orion Surveilance Planes at Oceans
  
• Promise to recieve Super Cobras post 2015
  
• J10B deal (36 , 2 Full Top of Line squadrons) - Cancelled deal by 2014

Defence Deal Under Zardari : (5 Wasted years)

Defence deals under Nawaz Sharif: (3 years wasted)

• 2-3 Helicopters not yet recieved from Russia

Also under Nawaz Sharif:

-8 submarines from China ($2-3bn)

-12 AH-1Z from the U.S. ($950m)

-$600m agreement with Ukraine for 200 more AK1 and upgrades to older Pakistani tanks

-$300-400m in HQ-16 SAM

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think the Super Cobras were understanding between Military to Military contacts from Musharf time period so doubt that Nawaz Sharif had anything to do with it

The possible project with Ukraine for Al Khalid Tanks , is a old long term MOU with Ukraine , but suprising after 10-15 years we don't make the Tank 100% in Pakistan requiring us to import tech

Now I agree the HQ-16 is certainly credible add under Nawaz Sharif's time but I wonder if that is due to Military planners , or Civilian body

But I will upgrade my origional post

Major deals pending under his watch

• T-129 Helicopter deal
• Corvettes deal

If Nawaz Sharif can conclude the T-129 Gunship project TOT and Corvette deal from Turkey that would be his legacy for National Defence

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I've been following this stuff since 2003, believe me, AH-1Z (which is the Viper, not AH-1W Super Cobra) was approved by the US in 2015.

The Ukraine MoU was signed in IDEAS 2016 and is separate from earlier agreements, which had concluded in the mid-2000s. The $600m MoU is for 200 new 6TD-2 engines for a new batch of al-Khalid 1 MBTs and upgrades to older armour.

At the end of the day, Nawaz Sharif is the one who has to sign the dotted line and release funds from the Ministry of Finance. It could have easily been nothing, like the Zardari era.

 

[Penguin]

I will say that the notion that they are not adapting to the times is scary. The idea that everthing is antiship interdiction is a frightening dereliction of duty when you consider that INs main AShM is a 300km hypersonic missile which none of your ships will be able to intercept given the longest range missile is 15km. Add to this the fact that the IN will soon field 2 carriers with Mig-29 and you are in for a world of hurt. A chinese solution or the Istanbul class would be a far better choice. I tell you, write it down now, if Ada class is selected it is a treasonous dereliction of duty to the service and a criminal waste of $500m amd someone has recieved a massive kickback. Think about this, the major thing keeping PN afloat now is A90b subs and they werr a massive kickback scheme. This will be far worse. At least those have been useful.

You think 054A can? The HQ-16 SAM is similar to the 9M38E series of export missiles that form part of the Russian Almaz-Antey Shtil systems China purchased for use on its Sovremenny-class (Project 956E/956EM) and Type 052B destroyers. In its naval guise, the HQ-16 is known as the HHQ-16 (Red Sea-16). Claimed hit probability of an aircraft with a single missile is 85%. Hit probability of a cruise missile is 60%.

A sh!tload of submarines for offensieve work, it whats needed. Then some hulls for defensive surface work.

 

[Nilgiri]

Hit probability of a cruise missile is 60%.

Is this a regular profile or sea skimming profile?

 

[Penguin]

Deat Sir, what options are there for PN in medium range SAMs which may be adopted in future for F22Ps. Further can PN install Chinese HQ16 SAMs on expected frigates to be procured from Turkey.

Aside from 'medium range' not at all being clearly defined in this context, I'm not at all clear which countries have and are willing to sell mid-range SAMs to Pakistan, let alone if they could be placed on F22P.

Is this a regular profile or sea skimming profile?

Doesn't say, but I would assume a sea skimming end run. There is no such thing as 'regular profile' in my book.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I dont agree that Frigates have no role on protecting the coast. The reality is that the biggest threat IN poses to Pakistan is through the air. 2 carriers will be fielding 26 Mig-29k each and numerous frigates and destroy which are capable of launching attacks on surface fleet amd land targets from 300km away. In time of war only 1 JF-17 squad will be dedicated to the navy and it plus a few Orions and 3 ATR-72 will be the only aircover PN has. It's surface boats will be effective for maybe a day until IAF and IN shoot down all PN aor assets and then the boats will be made short work of. The subs will last longer but how long is the question. 11 subs can be dangerous but eventually they will be cleaned from the board by sub hunting aircraft (posidens and helis). The surface fleet must be able to mount an air defense in order to hold the coast for any length of time. Pakistan's big saving grace is its connected by land to its biggest supporter and ally.

If an air defence network is needed, then someone will argue, "spend that $1bn on long-range SAMs, station the necessary number at Southern Command to cover our coastline and littoral seas" As for the IN P-8Is and ASW helicopters, the IN will need to cover Pakistan's littoral seas, which may bring them into the scope of the PAF and Pakistan's air defence network.

 

[帅的一匹]

China and Pakistan reached any deal on IDEX?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

China and Pakistan reached any deal on IDEX?

We'll find out in the next MoDP report.