Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[RAMPAGE]

Hope to see more collaborations on state of art naval subsystems and components, especially naval missile systems.


-National Cruise Missile (Gezgin) (~1000km) Tomahawk equivalent

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Tomahawk equivalent AShM

Edit: But then you'll be needing a radar with one hell of a range.

 

[My-Analogous]

Does Italy produce a engine which is equally powerful and can replace US engine ?

Agusta produce one of the best heli in the world

In Turkish, it's week.

In urdu we also used it for that, means it is a name of a day as well as whole week

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin

Do you think that it'll be possible to increase the number of VLS cells to 32 for Istanbul Class (Milgim 2) without enlarging the hull? Also, What do you think about CAFRAD for Istanbul Class?

Milgem 2 is about 10-11m longer. That extra length appears divided between 2 areas, a) between stack and mainmast and b) between bridge and main gun. You need that space for an extra set of 2x4 AShM and 2x Mk41 8-cell GWLS.

I don't see where else one could land the shortest Mk41 8-cell launcher (5.2 meters > 2 decks deep).

LMCO now also has the Mk41 single cell launcher. It might be possible to fit a row of 4-6 single cells left and right of the hangar area (launch opening flush with hangar roof), depending what the space besides the hangar is currently used for.

If the objective is to only fit ESSM, then the Mk48 launcher could offer an alternative, smaller (shorter) than Mk41.

ESSM and SM-2 are semiactive radar homing and necessaitate (a) radar illuminator(s). Unless using an active radar homing or imiging infrared homing missile (which are 'fire and forget'), use of SARH missiles would best be served with an integrated mast of sorts, e.g. Thales I-mast 400 or 500 with APAR, Elta MF-Star, and CAFRAD. That is the only way to avoid the need to install a (by definition limited) number of illuminators.

As soon as Raytheon smarts up and mates an Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) with the guidance section from the AIM-120, that would provide an interesting missile. Raytheon is already shoehorning ESSM rocket motor and flight control algorithms into AIM-120 to improve that (AMRAAM-ER) so how knows.... it may happen sooner rather than later.
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@Penguin

Do you think that it'll be possible to increase the number of VLS cells to 32 for Istanbul Class (Milgim 2) without enlarging the hull? Also, What do you think about CAFRAD for Istanbul Class?

Sorry, previous answer was, 'sticking in Mk41 without enlarging Milgem 1 hull'. No, I don't think you can double the number of 8-cell launchers forward of the bridge in Milgem 2. Possibly a few more single cell launchers in the rear, as indicated. Having both Mk41 and Mk41 on one ship would be undesirable.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Turkish defense minister meets Pakistani counterpart
3 June 2016 18:19 (UTC+04:00)

Newly-appointed Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Isik and Pakistani counterpart Khawaja Muhammad Asif met Friday in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense cooperation Anadolu Agency reported

"One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters," Isik said at a joint press conference held after the meeting.

The deal for the sale of the T129s -- a multi-role attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries -- will "further enhance our bilateral cooperation in the defense industry," Isik asserted.

The Turkish defense minister added that plans to purchase Pakistani-made Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft were still in the pipeline.

He went on to note that the Pakistani authorities, for their part, had requested the purchase of four Turkish Ada-class corvettes (which would be built in Pakistan).

Isik also said that Turkey and Pakistan had begun discussing details of a cooperation deal by which Turkey would help modernize the Pakistani navy's fleet of three Agosta-class submarines.

Isik also met with Pakistani army chief General Raheel Sharif on Friday at Pakistani army headquarters in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

At the meeting, the two men discussed regional security and defense collaboration, according to an army statement issued after the meeting.

Isik, for his part, voiced his appreciation for the Pakistani armed forces' contributions to the fight against terrorism and promotion of regional peace and security.

 

[Penguin]

better check it out the Main / passive towed array sonar from 056!

The basic Type 056 is equipped with Type 347G (LR66) radar and bow-mounted sonar only. The Type 056A adds towed array and variable depth sonars (VDS).

The Ada class have an Thales Smart-S mk2 and an indigenous hull mounted mid-frequency active/passive sonar, the TBT-01 Yakamoz, developed by the Scientific and Technological Research Foundation of Turkey ( http://www.turksavunmasanayi.gov.tr...eniz-birimleri-uretim-ve-entegrasyonu-projesi ). BUT ... also carries:

• S-70B-28 Seahawk: SH-60 export version for Turkey.
  • an international derivative of the U.S. Navy SH-60B SEAHAWK. The S-70B has a fully integrated glass cockpit with smart multifunction liquid crystal displays and a mission management system. Its flexible mission package includes dipping sonar, ESM, FLIR, multi-mode radar, ASE, and Penguin and Hellfire missiles. Multi-mission capable, the S-70B can perform Search and Rescue (SAR), Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC), surveillance, Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP), and utility missions.
    • AN/AQS-13 series dipping sonars, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AQS-13#Export_Versions

In my experience,sensor fit is customer determined. F22P for example is fitted with a sonar of European origin (Atlas ASO 94). Atlas could also deliver a towed array, if desired, or a VDS

https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/what-we-do/anti-submarine-warfare/
https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/what-we-do/anti-submarine-warfare/aso/

 

[cabatli_53]

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Tomahawk equivalent AShM

Edit: But then you'll be needing a radar with one hell of a range.

Who knows Turkey maybe collaborates with Pakistan to develop Gezgin LACM based on Babur parameters. Radar seeker heads are under the profession of Aselsan !

The seeker heads developed for Atmaca sip to ship missiles !

 

[Penguin]

The project covers the construction of eight corvettes (Ada class) and four frigates (TF-100 class) for the Turkish Navy, with possible exports to other countries. The first two ships of the class, TCG Heybeliada and TCG Büyükada were built by the Istanbul Naval Shipyard Command. The cost of the lead ship Heybeliada was around US$260 million. On January 3, 2013, the Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries announced that RMK Marine Gemi Yapım Sanayi A.Ş., a Turkish shipbuilding company, will construct a further six MİLGEM project (Ada class) corvettes for the Turkish Navy at a cost of US$1.5 billion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILGEM_project

So, that's not the deal with Pakistan, is it?

Besides, from the same wiki, "In September 2013, then Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced that the MİLGEM project was to be temporarily put on hold after the completion of the first two corvettes by the Istanbul Naval Shipyard, and that the bid won by RMK Marine to build six more corvettes was cancelled. This was reportedly because the other shipbuilders complained about the bidding process. He added that a new bidding process will take place"

So, we really only know the price for the first 2 ships. And the wiki says

"According to the MILGEM acquisition model, Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) signed R&D contracts mostly for the two prototype ships which are considered to be development platforms for testing the design and integrated systems. Thus, being an open-end project, 1st and 2nd ships of the class are expected to be slightly different in terms of vessel design and system configuration. The subsequent ships, expected to be built by private shipyards, will have more optimised design and configuration"

Anyway, as more ships are built, price should go down.

Besides, what's expensive?

The Sa'ar 6-class corvette is a class of four warships ordered for the Israeli Navy in May 2015. The ships' design will be a variant of the German Braunschweig-class corvette, and all four vessels will be constructed in Germany. The first of the class is scheduled to enter service in 2019. Construction cost estimated at NIS 1.8 billion Israeli new shekel (NIS) or roughly 430-million Euro ($480-million)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'ar_6-class_corvette

That's $120 million / €107.5 million for an 2,000 ton corvette. But we don't know yet if this is just the ship, or also includes the weapon and sensor systems. For comparison, our 3750 ton Holland class OPVs, cost ~US$150m/ship and have nothing near the weapons and sensors of the SAAR 6. So go figure.

 

[Oguzhan]

120m is nothing for this ship.It must be empty price.You guys know better but our's was something like 260m for each with guns etc.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

I'm not even sure Turkey is interested in "for profit" deals for the Ada Class Corvettes with Pakistan (remember Turkey promised to loan 400M to Pakistan for the Corvettes). Direct financial transactions in today's world is not the only means of "trade". TOT in diverse fields (LACM ICBM (Taimur with 7k range)) rights to mining ores, favorable investments and so much more.

Both countries' governments and militaries are extremelly well connected today, im sure there are deals made that take into account strains of both countries and are favorable to both.

 

[UkroTurk]

Still I don't know difference between milgem, Istanbul class,Ada class, tf 100 , tf 200.
All ships must be Milgem , aren't they?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@Penguin
The deal would be similar to what Turkey has paid, USD 1.5 Billion for 6 Ships. But Pakistan would be getting 4 for a similar price as this might include construction of new infrastructure at Gawadar.

May be once the new tender for the Frigates is signed Pakistan might also buy 4 of them which could be built in Turkey. Taking the numbers to 8 (4 ADA Class and 4 Istanbul class) in all.

 

[ziaulislam]

I'm not even sure Turkey is interested in "for profit" deals for the Ada Class Corvettes with Pakistan (remember Turkey promised to loan 400M to Pakistan for the Corvettes). Direct financial transactions in today's world is not the only means of "trade". TOT in diverse fields (LACM ICBM (Taimur with 7k range)) rights to mining ores, favorable investments and so much more.

Both countries' governments and militaries are extremely well connected today, im sure there are deals made that take into account strains of both countries and are favorable to both.

producing more ships will automatically means lower unit class and more prospectives for future updates etc

 

[Penguin]

totally agree with you that rim is a great missile and is extremely potent point defense missile but i work best when coupled with other system like standard missile like of which we lack in PN.
My problem is not with the missile but over all utility of the ship when you know what PN's opponent operate.

But why assume PN surface ships would face IN surface ships and would have to be similar? I very much doubt that is their intended role. Given the proximity ot India, air attack is the biggest if unavoidable risk, unless ... you're busy out in the Arabian Sea. Against surface fleet of IN, submarines are the key. Surface ships of PN are there for ASW and patrolling SLOCs. There simply is no way to numerically match IN. What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant.

@Penguin
The deal would be similar to what Turkey has paid, USD 1.5 Billion for 6 Ships. But Pakistan would be getting 4 for a similar price as this might include construction of new infrastructure at Gawadar.

May be once the new tender for the Frigates is signed Pakistan might also buy 4 of them which could be built in Turkey. Taking the numbers to 8 (4 ADA Class and 4 Istanbul class) in all.

As I recal, the follow on order for 6 was put on hold after copmlaints about the bid proces. It therefor is not a given that the price you quote is what Turkey will pay. Clearly, as I have also indicated, domestic production of a foreign design will mean some additional cost, seperate from the actual cost of construction of the ships.

No amount was specified in the initial post of this thread. What is the source of the price quote?

 

[Hell hound]

What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant.

sorry bro couldn't understand this point.will you pls explain it in little bit detail

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Still I don't know difference between milgem, Istanbul class,Ada class, tf 100 , tf 200.
All ships must be Milgem , aren't they?

MILGEM in Turkish mean National Ship.

This project aims at building Corvette, Frigate and Destroyer. Hence what you see is there is no deference in name MILGEM.

But why assume PN surface ships would face IN surface ships and would have to be similar? I very much doubt that is their intended role. Given the proximity ot India, air attack is the biggest if unavoidable risk, unless ... you're busy out in the Arabian Sea. Against surface fleet of IN, submarines are the key. Surface ships of PN are there for ASW and patrolling SLOCs. There simply is no way to numerically match IN. What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant.


As I recal, the follow on order for 6 was put on hold after copmlaints about the bid proces. It therefor is not a given that the price you quote is what Turkey will pay. Clearly, as I have also indicated, domestic production of a foreign design will mean some additional cost, seperate from the actual cost of construction of the ships.

No amount was specified in the initial post of this thread. What is the source of the price quote?

Here is an article that was published last year and it quotes the price of the Lead Ship to be around $260 million. However in 2013 due to setback the price doubled. If we take the price to be ~ 400 million then 1.6 Billion for 4 as this is going to be constructed in Pakistan hence the price would be around 1.5 Billion. The amount would go down when more ships are ordered. We could see a new tender for the Turkish Navy soon as one of the ships is due by next month.

http://navalanalyses.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/ada-class-corvettes-of-turkish-navy.html