Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

So, that's not the deal with Pakistan, is it?

Besides, from the same wiki, "In September 2013, then Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced that the MİLGEM project was to be temporarily put on hold after the completion of the first two corvettes by the Istanbul Naval Shipyard, and that the bid won by RMK Marine to build six more corvettes was cancelled. This was reportedly because the other shipbuilders complained about the bidding process. He added that a new bidding process will take place"

So, we really only know the price for the first 2 ships. And the wiki says

"According to the MILGEM acquisition model, Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) signed R&D contracts mostly for the two prototype ships which are considered to be development platforms for testing the design and integrated systems. Thus, being an open-end project, 1st and 2nd ships of the class are expected to be slightly different in terms of vessel design and system configuration. The subsequent ships, expected to be built by private shipyards, will have more optimised design and configuration"

Anyway, as more ships are built, price should go down.

Besides, what's expensive?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'ar_6-class_corvette

That's $120 million / €107.5 million for an 2,000 ton corvette. But we don't know yet if this is just the ship, or also includes the weapon and sensor systems. For comparison, our 3750 ton Holland class OPVs, cost ~US$150m/ship and have nothing near the weapons and sensors of the SAAR 6. So go figure.

Those years were devastating for Milli Gemi ( national ship) project since the key and top officers running the project were arrested under false espionage and "immoral activities" charges. It was an unprecedented conspiracy to stall defense projects. Anyway, everything got obvious within a couple of years. The officers are out now, and ,hopefully, they're again working of these projects...

 

[Penguin]

i wasn't comparing PN's anti air capability with IN's but was afraid of brahmos and mig29 they will be the aerial threat we will be facing in the war we need mid if not long range sams to defend our ships before these guys can do the damage to us our air force will be stretched thin and may not be able to provide the required cover to the navy thats why we need some contingency plans like a potent mid range sam which these Turkish ship will not come with.
these guys will be eaten alive in the case of Indian raid

I don't see how a ship or a few ships with a longer range SAM would drastically change the (im)balance. Therefor, why waste money on it. You'ld probably be better off getting a whole bunch of land mobile HQ9 and submarines.

Those years were devastating for Milli Gemi ( national ship) project since the key and top officers running the project were arrested under false espionage and "immoral activities" charges. It was an unprecedented conspiracy to stall defense projects. Anyway, everything got obvious within a couple of years. The officers are out now, and ,hopefully, they're again working of these projects...

Conspiracy? By whom?

 

[Manidabest]

Isn't the Turkish started first my smearing China? I merely response to such provocation. I am just reminding you all of the so called Turkish weapon has so many foreign implication that you all shall aware of. You as a Pakistanis shall feel enraged when US Obama claim US will not stop drone attack in Pakistan soil. Yet supporting any sales that will benefit US is not the brightest idea, isn't it? Turkey is still heavily depend on US for many sub system weapons. And it will stay that way for many decades. Things like engine take many decades to develop and the R&D it undertake is enormous.

China just managed to see the fruit recently for our QC-280 gas ship turbine, 1300hp engine for our VT-4 tank just debut and we no need to import tank engine from Ukraine for export anymore. It takes double digit billions dollars and thousands hours of hard work from huge pool of Chinese scientist to achieve such result. Beware of those empty promise who claimed they can develop it in few years time with much smaller funds and resources.

Better stick with proven record and materialize project.

well for Pakistanis , Chinese & Turkish people are trustworthy people.. we want F22P and stealthy 5th generation planes from China and with best submarines Chinese have offered and we want Attack helicopters, Ada class ships, and Altay tanks from Turkey.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Turkish defense minister meets Pakistani counterpart
3 June 2016 18:19 (UTC+04:00)

Newly-appointed Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Isik and Pakistani counterpart Khawaja Muhammad Asif met Friday in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense cooperation Anadolu Agency reported

"One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters," Isik said at a joint press conference held after the meeting.

The deal for the sale of the T129s -- a multi-role attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries -- will "further enhance our bilateral cooperation in the defense industry," Isik asserted.

The Turkish defense minister added that plans to purchase Pakistani-made Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft were still in the pipeline.

He went on to note that the Pakistani authorities, for their part, had requested the purchase of four Turkish Ada-class corvettes (which would be built in Pakistan).

Isik also said that Turkey and Pakistan had begun discussing details of a cooperation deal by which Turkey would help modernize the Pakistani navy's fleet of three Agosta-class submarines.

Isik also met with Pakistani army chief General Raheel Sharif on Friday at Pakistani army headquarters in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

At the meeting, the two men discussed regional security and defense collaboration, according to an army statement issued after the meeting.

Isik, for his part, voiced his appreciation for the Pakistani armed forces' contributions to the fight against terrorism and promotion of regional peace and security.

Best T-129 heli Video <3

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I don't see how a ship or a few ships with a longer range SAM would drastically change the (im)balance. Therefor, why waste money on it. You'ld probably be better off getting a whole bunch of land mobile HQ9 and submarines.


Conspiracy? By whom?

By the usual suspects...

 

[Penguin]

By the usual suspects...

That is saying nothing. Either be specific or don't mention it. And should you say it, substantiate it.

 

[Quwa]

If Pakistan wants a MR/LR SAM, it'd be worth studying Denel Dynamics' Umkhonto and Marlin programs. The company intends to develop a 60km range radar-guided SAM using technology from those programs.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

That is saying nothing. Either be specific or don't mention it. And should you say it, substantiate it.

I think he is referring to the attempted/alleged Sledgemehammer coup plan/conspiracy of the then military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)
"The plan allegedly was to stir up chaos and justify a military coup. The army said the plans had been discussed but only as part of a scenario-based planning exercise at a military seminar"

Hundreds of military officers were wrongly arrested on unsubstantiated claims. The judges, justices etc were mostly in the hands of the Fetullah Gulen organization (the guys behind Today's Zaman (that are behind bars or fired from their positions because of another attempted coup)), that had infiltrated the court system.

Today most of these officers are freed, since it seems almost everything was a hoax/conspiracy orchestrated by the Gulen movement to install their own guys in the military. The Gulen movement attempted to do the same with the politicians when Erdogan turned his back to Gulen and pursued national interests without consulting Gulen.
It's really complex, i would say even 95% of Turks are unaware of these developments and conspiracies.

There is a thing called "deep state" in Turkey, these are the real elites according to some theories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state--> "the political agenda of the deep state involves an allegiance to nationalism, corporatism, and state interests. Violence and other means of pressure have historically been employed in a largely covert manner to manipulate political and economic elites and ensure specific interests are met within the seemingly democratic framework of the political landscape"

You wouldn't want to waste your time on these matters.

 

[UkroTurk]

HISAR-O has already been done.
Naval version is not big problem. If you want , Turkey will be ready to help all your problems.
Pakistan is the biggest and closest friend to Turkey.

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53 What's the ETA on the Hisar-A and Hisar-O? If Pakistan begins to receive its Ada-class corvettes after 2020, would the Hisar-O be ready?

Bro, Hisar system are expected to be completed by 2018 but I don't know If Naval variant will be ready in that time.

 

[RAMPAGE]

"What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant."
How good the other guys air defences are simply is not relevant in assessing how good my own air defences are.
I can put together a perfectly good and effective ship self defence AAW package with missiles that have a range of less than 90km (Barak 8). It matters not at all that my AAW area coverage/range is less (or more) than their AAW area coverage/range, so long as mine is effective at killing the air targets they present me with. What does matter, is the kind of air targets your AAW system has to deal with.

But the HQ-7 is not effective at killing the air targets (Mig-29K) presented. The primary role of the IR guided HQ-7 is to intercept AShMs. Intercepting those Mig-29Ks is where the HQ-9 + HQ-16 come in handy. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Penguin]

You wouldn't want to waste your time on these matters.

I'ld rather read some C. Wright Mills.

 

[UkroTurk]

I don't see how a ship or a few ships with a longer range SAM would drastically change the (im)balance. Therefor, why waste money on it. You'ld probably be better off getting a whole bunch of land mobile HQ9 and submarines.


Conspiracy? By whom?

To reinforce sovereignty on your seas, show your flag.
That's why our ships that without SAM systems wave flag in the Eagean Sea.

In order to wawing Turkish flag Turkish Navy uses more little patrol vessels.
It's enough for wawing flag, neither Greeks nore Turkey intends destroying some ships .

Bu fotografi bizzat ben Kusadasinda cekmistim. Turk forumlarinda kullanmak istediler verdim. O fotoyu kullanan zibidi sonra beni asagilamaya kalkti. Ordan burdan toplayip stratejist oluyorlar.

 

[Penguin]

But the HQ-7 is not effective at killing the air targets (Mig-29K) presented. The primary role of the IR guided HQ-7 is to intercept AShMs. Intercepting those Mig-29Ks is where the HQ-9 + HQ-16 come in handy. Do you disagree with that?

HQ-7 is not IR guided, it is a command to line of sight missile, and uses a combined radar/electro-optronic target tracker.

Type 345 HHQ-7 Naval Sino-Crotale engagement radar (image © 2009, Zhenguan Studio).

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-7-Crotale.html

It is a derivative of the French Thomson-CSF R-440 Crotale missile. That system - a mobile, all-weather, low-altitude surface-to-air missile system - was designed to combat targets flying at a speed of M1.2 at an altitude of 50 to 3,000 m and an equivalent radar area of 1 m2 fluctuating. R440 users (or former users): Bahrain, Egypt, France, Libya, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, South Africa, United Arab Emirates. South Africa payed 85% of its development costs and fielded it as Cactus. However, the achievements of the system impressed the French Armed Forces, who purchased the system both for the air force and for the navy.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/70/cactus-crotale-sam

I don't see why HQ-7/FM-90N couldn't deal with a Mig-29K. Please clarify.

 

[RAMPAGE]

HQ-7 is not IR guided, it is a command to line of sight missile, and uses a combined radar/electro-optronic target tracker.

It is a derivative of the French Thomson-CSF R-440 Crotale missile. That system was designed to combat targets flying at a speed of M1.2 at an altitude of 50 to 3,000 m and an equivalent radar area of 1 m2 fluctuating. R440 users (or former users): Bahrain, Egypt, France, Libya, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, South Africa, United Arab Emirates. South Africa payed 85% of its development costs and fielded it as Cactus. However, the achievements of the system impressed the French Armed Forces, who purchased the system both for the air force and for the navy.

Didn't know it had a RF seeker. But be that as it may, You still haven't answered my question. Do you think that it is sufficient for thwarting the Mig-29Ks? If so, Why?