Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Tank131]

Frankly, I am not sure what the major utility of the Ada class would be for PN. It is another ship with only point defense systems and not truly multirole, which is the need of the hour for PN. I agree with @Penguin that most engagement with IN would be via SSKs (of which PN will have 11). However these often would be sitting ducks against IN's sub-hunters in without surface protection in the form of Frigates/Corvettes. Now F-22P is moderately larger than the Ada. It is significantly longer (by 23m) though is slightly narrower with a beam of 13.8m vs 14.4m and has a slightly shallower draught (by 6in). Concominantly it has a max load displacement of 3100t vs 2400t of Ada. If redesigned along the lines of the C28A but with VLS systems like Sylver A50 with Quadpacked Umkhonto-R or CAMM, it would carry far more firepower for protection against aerial targets, than the Ada. In the proper load-out, it could be capable of carrying 96 - 128 medium range SAMs and if the boxes for C802 were moved to around the hanger location, could also carry 48 FL-3000N Short range SAM.

The TF-100 is not even a thing anymore and will be filled out by MILGEM Batch 2 AKA MILGEM-G which a @Penguin pointed out, will be 10M longer and carry ESSM and (like ADA-Class), the RAM. http://militaryedge.org/articles/turkey-expand-milgem-batch-ii-corvette-role-capability/

That places tremendous risk for PN given that ESSM May not be cleared for sale by US. If it is, that great, get a mk41 and place it on the Alamghir as well, but IF PN really wants to proceed with Turkish involvement in its corvette/frigate program, i would request that they RAM be replaced with FL-3000N and that Mk41 with ESSM be replaced by Sylver A50 with Umkhonto-R or CAMM.

Regarding the T-129, i actually prefer this given that it will be up to NATO standards vs the Wz-10. The Mi-28 will be a long shot. With the T-129, you could go for the Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D which powered the Mangusta (A-129) which would make it slightly less sanction prone as it is coming from UK. It would enable local weaponry to be integrated, like the Barq Missile instead of Hellfire/Umtas. Barq (likely being based off AR-1) has a suspected range between 8-10km. Having the Mi-28 would likely prohibit that use. More than its capabilities, it diversifies PN's suppliers and gives potiential for local manufacturing which Mi-28 for sure wouldnt.

 

[MastanKhan]

Frankly, I am not sure what the major utility of the Ada class would be for PN. It is another ship with only point defense systems and not truly multirole, which is the need of the hour for PN. I agree with @Penguin that most engagement with IN would be via SSKs (of which PN will have 11). However these often would be sitting ducks against IN's sub-hunters in without surface protection in the form of Frigates/Corvettes. Now F-22P is moderately larger than the Ada. It is significantly longer (by 23m) though is slightly narrower with a beam of 13.8m vs 14.4m and has a slightly shallower draught (by 6in). Concominantly it has a max load displacement of 3100t vs 2400t of Ada. If redesigned along the lines of the C28A but with VLS systems like Sylver A50 with Quadpacked Umkhonto-R or CAMM, it would carry far more firepower for protection against aerial targets, than the Ada. In the proper load-out, it could be capable of carrying 96 - 128 medium range SAMs and if the boxes for C802 were moved to around the hanger location, could also carry 48 FL-3000N Short range SAM.

The TF-100 is not even a thing anymore and will be filled out by MILGEM Batch 2 AKA MILGEM-G which a @Penguin pointed out, will be 10M longer and carry ESSM and (like ADA-Class), the RAM. http://militaryedge.org/articles/turkey-expand-milgem-batch-ii-corvette-role-capability/

That places tremendous risk for PN given that ESSM May not be cleared for sale by US. If it is, that great, get a mk41 and place it on the Alamghir as well, but IF PN really wants to proceed with Turkish involvement in its corvette/frigate program, i would request that they RAM be replaced with FL-3000N and that Mk41 with ESSM be replaced by Sylver A50 with Umkhonto-R or CAMM.

Regarding the T-129, i actually prefer this given that it will be up to NATO standards vs the Wz-10. The Mi-28 will be a long shot. With the T-129, you could go for the Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D which powered the Mangusta (A-129) which would make it slightly less sanction prone as it is coming from UK. It would enable local weaponry to be integrated, like the Barq Missile instead of Hellfire/Umtas. Barq (likely being based off AR-1) has a suspected range between 8-10km. Having the Mi-28 would likely prohibit that use. More than its capabilities, it diversifies PN's suppliers and gives potiential for local manufacturing which Mi-28 for sure wouldnt.

Hi,

I was thinking on the same lines that this corvette does not add much to the punch---.

A weapon of choice would be a larger frigate than the F22---.

I would rather have two of those now than 4 Ada class corvettes---.

2 heavies will have 10 times more fire power than 4 corvettes----and outshoot all the corvette weapons in range and numbers.

 

[Quwa]

Frankly, I am not sure what the major utility of the Ada class would be for PN. It is another ship with only point defense systems and not truly multirole, which is the need of the hour for PN. I agree with @Penguin that most engagement with IN would be via SSKs (of which PN will have 11). However these often would be sitting ducks against IN's sub-hunters in without surface protection in the form of Frigates/Corvettes. Now F-22P is moderately larger than the Ada. It is significantly longer (by 23m) though is slightly narrower with a beam of 13.8m vs 14.4m and has a slightly shallower draught (by 6in). Concominantly it has a max load displacement of 3100t vs 2400t of Ada. If redesigned along the lines of the C28A but with VLS systems like Sylver A50 with Quadpacked Umkhonto-R or CAMM, it would carry far more firepower for protection against aerial targets, than the Ada. In the proper load-out, it could be capable of carrying 96 - 128 medium range SAMs and if the boxes for C802 were moved to around the hanger location, could also carry 48 FL-3000N Short range SAM.

The TF-100 is not even a thing anymore and will be filled out by MILGEM Batch 2 AKA MILGEM-G which a @Penguin pointed out, will be 10M longer and carry ESSM and (like ADA-Class), the RAM. http://militaryedge.org/articles/turkey-expand-milgem-batch-ii-corvette-role-capability/

That places tremendous risk for PN given that ESSM May not be cleared for sale by US. If it is, that great, get a mk41 and place it on the Alamghir as well, but IF PN really wants to proceed with Turkish involvement in its corvette/frigate program, i would request that they RAM be replaced with FL-3000N and that Mk41 with ESSM be replaced by Sylver A50 with Umkhonto-R or CAMM.

Regarding the T-129, i actually prefer this given that it will be up to NATO standards vs the Wz-10. The Mi-28 will be a long shot. With the T-129, you could go for the Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D which powered the Mangusta (A-129) which would make it slightly less sanction prone as it is coming from UK. It would enable local weaponry to be integrated, like the Barq Missile instead of Hellfire/Umtas. Barq (likely being based off AR-1) has a suspected range between 8-10km. Having the Mi-28 would likely prohibit that use. More than its capabilities, it diversifies PN's suppliers and gives potiential for local manufacturing which Mi-28 for sure wouldnt.

We're in the very early stages of all this, so what I have is just guesswork...

The $400 million U.S. loan requested for the 4 Ada-class corvettes suggests one of two things (or both): (1) the amount represents the price of the Ada hull and propulsion or (2) portion of the price, with Pakistan paying the rest with funds allocated for procurement. Either way, our details are scarce, but I doubt the PN has frozen its choice of subsystems and weapons. It is worth noting that around the time it announced its Ada corvette request, the PN asked Denel Dynamics for information on the Umkhonto SAM. Not saying that the two are necessarily connected, but funny timing. That said, I don't think acquiring the Thales Smart-S Mk2 with the CAMM is insurmountable.

Regarding SAM though, I'd prefer we spend and get Denel Dynamics or NORINCO give us something that is at least loosely comparable to the Barak-8 MR/LR SAM - i.e. 60km+ range and compact enough to fit on a range of surface warships.

 

[Arsalan]

@cabatli_53 I have never seen any picture of T-129 in which its carrying 8 Anti Tank Missiles ? Why is that ? @Arsalan @Sinan @Sulman Badshah

Most of the pictures are from side so you cannot see that the other side also have 4 ATGM. Others which are from front showing both wing pylons are mostly from exhibitions or flight demonstrations where the aim to to showcase all the variety of weapons the helicopter can carry.

Still,

 

[-SINAN-]

Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Işık met his Pakistani counterpart, Khawaja Muhammad Asif, on June 3 in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense relations including a contract to modernize the Pakistan Navy's three Agosta 90B-class (aka Khalid-class) diesel-electric attack submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion systems, Hurriyet Daily News reports.

According to the Turkish daily Milliyet, Turkey's defense minister expects a deal to be signed by the end of this month. No additional details about the Turkey-Pakistan defense deal have so far been revealed.

Some Pakistani defense analysts have speculated that the upgrade could entail the modernization of the Khalid-class submarines' combat management system, by, for example, Turkish defense contractor Havelsan, who has successfully developed a combat management system for the Turkish Navy's submarine fleet -- primarily consisting of variants of German Type 209 boats.

The four Ada-class corvettes would be built in Pakistan, according to the minister, although previous press reports indicated that only three ships would be constructed in Karachi over a ten-year period. The Ada-class vessels are littoral combat warships, primarily designed for offshore and high-sea patrolling, but can also be used for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare missions during wartime.

Pakistan has allegedly also expressed interest in Turkey's first indigenously-designed, third generation+ main battle tank (MBT) Altay. However, "[r]eports that Pakistan is interested in the Altay have to take into account that Turkey's new MBT will be an expensive acquisition for the Pakistan Army since the Altay is based on Western tank designs and will be a NATO-standard MBT," as I reported previously.

Discussions over the Altay MBT apparently did not take place during last week's visit.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/will-turkey-modernize-pakistans-attack-submarine-fleet/

 

[Zarvan]

Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Işık met his Pakistani counterpart, Khawaja Muhammad Asif, on June 3 in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense relations including a contract to modernize the Pakistan Navy's three Agosta 90B-class (aka Khalid-class) diesel-electric attack submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion systems, Hurriyet Daily News reports.

According to the Turkish daily Milliyet, Turkey's defense minister expects a deal to be signed by the end of this month. No additional details about the Turkey-Pakistan defense deal have so far been revealed.

Some Pakistani defense analysts have speculated that the upgrade could entail the modernization of the Khalid-class submarines' combat management system, by, for example, Turkish defense contractor Havelsan, who has successfully developed a combat management system for the Turkish Navy's submarine fleet -- primarily consisting of variants of German Type 209 boats.

The four Ada-class corvettes would be built in Pakistan, according to the minister, although previous press reports indicated that only three ships would be constructed in Karachi over a ten-year period. The Ada-class vessels are littoral combat warships, primarily designed for offshore and high-sea patrolling, but can also be used for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare missions during wartime.

Pakistan has allegedly also expressed interest in Turkey's first indigenously-designed, third generation+ main battle tank (MBT) Altay. However, "[r]eports that Pakistan is interested in the Altay have to take into account that Turkey's new MBT will be an expensive acquisition for the Pakistan Army since the Altay is based on Western tank designs and will be a NATO-standard MBT," as I reported previously.

Discussions over the Altay MBT apparently did not take place during last week's visit.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/will-turkey-modernize-pakistans-attack-submarine-fleet/

Price can be discussed with our brother and I think along with T-129 and ADA class !! Altay would also come

 

[Dalit]

This is awesome news. I would love to see Pak Turkey relations develop to whole new level.

 

[Savas-Usta]

Price can be discussed with our brother and I think along with T-129 and ADA class !! Altay would also come

Does Pakistan need heavy class mbts? Pakistan and Turkey should jointly develop a new class of MBT that is specifically tailored to Pakistan's needs.

Take for instance Turkish and Indonesian co-operation to develp a medium weight MBT.

 

[Zarvan]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=464639917039841

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is awesome news. I would love to see Pak Turkey relations develop to whole new level.

Spiritual closeness has always been there. Now, material side is maturing..

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Yes, Pakistan is needed some more mature MBT platform.
As we are waiting for AK -2 class MBT to be roll out.If it meets our requirement, thats fine otherwise, we will be looking into possibility to work jointly with Turkey to develop a new MBT according to our specific requirements.

Pakistan does has DESERTED border area with India where heavy class advanced MBT are essential to give quick response effectively.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

That is saying nothing. Either be specific or don't mention it. And should you say it, substantiate it.

Most of the staffs in geopolitics and geostrategies are silent killers or saviors without much public documentations like the British constitution which is unwritten. Anyway, those who understand will fathom it, for others they don't need it..

 

[Zarvan]

Yes, Pakistan is needed some more mature MBT platform.
As we are waiting for AK -2 class MBT to be roll out.If it meets our requirement, thats fine otherwise, we will be looking into possibility to work jointly with Turkey to develop a new MBT according to our specific requirements.

Pakistan does has DESERTED border area with India where heavy class advanced MBT are essential to give quick response effectively.

AL KHALID II would come that doesn't mean Altay can't or won't come

 

[C130]

AL KHALID II would come that doesn't mean Altay can't or won't come

can Pakistan afford a $6+ million dollar high tech Altay??

 

[Zarvan]

can Pakistan afford a $6+ million dollar high tech Altay??

Sir kind of things we are looking to acquire almost all of them look difficult to afford but somehow we are acquiring new weapons