Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[cabatli_53]

"Kulaç" sounding sonar

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Head of SSM said that they are foreseeing the price of the tank.....1/40 of the development cost.
Project Development Cost: 550$ Million..... 550/40 = 13.75$ Million for the single tank.
http://www.yenisafak.com/ekonomi/seri-uretim-teklifi-haftaya-2386324

It sounds too much....., hopefully it's final price will be lower.

The order of 40 ALTAY is an initial order... Later in the same article it states 250 tanks in first serial production and 250 in second serial production. This would indicate that the development price would be 40th part of the total order that is placed.

What is the expected contract to be like for the 250 Altay tanks in First batch?

 

[cabatli_53]

Altay's cost per unit may be equal or higher than equivalents because The Akkor protection system will be standart equipment for all serially produced Altay MBT.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Altay's cost per unit may be equal or higher than equivalents because The Akkor protection system will be standart equipment for all serially produced Altay MBT.

Thank you that really explains the new edge the machine gives justifies the asking price

 

[-SINAN-]

The order of 40 ALTAY is an initial order... Later in the same article it states 250 tanks in first serial production and 250 in second serial production. This would indicate that the development price would be 40th part of the total order that is placed.

What is the expected contract to be like for the 250 Altay tanks in First batch?

First batch will be 250 Tanks....

"Single tanks price will be 1/40 of the project development cost", no such thing as "40 ALTAY is an initial order"

hank you that really explains the new edge the machine gives justifies the asking price

IMO,price is still not finalized...As serial production deal not yet signed...We will see the real figures when it's signed.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

First batch will be 250 Tanks....

"Single tanks price will be 1/40 of the project development cost", no such thing as "40 ALTAY is an initial order"


IMO,price is still not finalized...As serial production deal not yet signed...We will see the real figures when it's signed.

The price does not make sence if the development cost would be as quoted in the article then what is the break even number? One more thing that come to my mind is the price would increase if we add the costs of building these tanks so they would cost even then any other tank in the word. Though this Tank should not cost more than 7 million.

 

[Arsalan]

GUYS,
Naval section,, ada class corvettes,, boats,,, remember???
Where did this ALTAY came from?

GUYS,
Naval section,, ada class corvettes,, boats,,, remember???

Where did this ALTAY came from?

Surprising specially when the issues with ALTAY have been discussed to death concerning PA procurement. Something are not meant to happen. This is one of such things. There are some problems which makes this unsuitable for Pakistan army and the wont be buying stuff only because it looks nice to you.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC and if after all those lengthy debates if someone still feel the need to dig up ALTAY, take it to relevant thread and discuss it there. You can tag the members you want to invite over there. However, before you do that, i will suggest you people look up the detailed discussion we have had about ALTAY in last year or two. No one likes banging there head against the wall.

 

[Zarvan]

GUYS,
Naval section,, ada class corvettes,, boats,,, remember???
Where did this ALTAY came from?

GUYS,
Naval section,, ada class corvettes,, boats,,, remember???

Where did this ALTAY came from?

Surprising specially when the issues with ALTAY have been discussed to death concerning PA procurement. Something are not meant to happen. This is one of such things. There are some problems which makes this unsuitable for Pakistan army and the wont be buying stuff only because it looks nice to you.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC and if after all those lengthy debates if someone still feel the need to dig up ALTAY, take it to relevant thread and discuss it there. You can tag the members you want to invite over there. However, before you do that, i will suggest you people look up the detailed discussion we have had about ALTAY in last year or two. No one likes banging there head against the wall.

Other links mention Altay also

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Pakistan should go for Atlay. It is really nice machine.

any ways come back to ADA class ship.
This is need of time in context of Gawadar port patrolling requirements.

 

[fatman17]

When one talks to navy guys in the know, they indicate that they have no news on ada corvettes.

 

[Quwa]

When one talks to navy guys in the know, they indicate that they have no news on ada corvettes.

The Turkish defence minister said 4 were requested with a $400m loan. Plus, no one in the know apparently knew about the T-129 making a return show. I think at this stage officers in the know are just being reluctant to talk about things that have yet to enter the pipeline.

 

[Arsalan]

Other links mention Altay also

Do they mention to discuss this in Naval section on Ada class corvettes thread?

Haven't we had enough of it already? Why do our people love to live in the dream world while things around them keep changing from bad to worst? I understand that you or some other will like this tank, i do too, but i am certain we have discussed the prospects to death in the relevant thread haven't we? Still, if you do or anyone else do feel the need, take this to relevant threads. PLEASE!

When one talks to navy guys in the know, they indicate that they have no news on ada corvettes.

Who cares sir?
The party is ON, just like it was with U212, ALTAY, Su35 and QING and God knows what.

The problem here is NOT whether we are going to go for these, although technically they make little sense but then again, that is not the issues. The problem is why we ALWAYS act so prematurely. We call China as our friend, cant we learn this one little thing from them? Screw the hard work thing, just at least learn to have a bit of patience and humility from them. Learn to wait for the right moment before unveiling/boasting about the procurement.

 

[Zarvan]

Do they mention to discuss this in Naval section on Ada class corvettes thread?

Haven't we had enough of it already? Why do our people love to live in the dream world while things around them keep changing from bad to worst? I understand that you or some other will like this tank, i do too, but i am certain we have discussed the prospects to death in the relevant thread haven't we? Still, if you do or anyone else do feel the need, take this to relevant threads. PLEASE!


Who cares sir?
The party is ON, just like it was with U212, ALTAY, Su35 and QING and God knows what.

The problem here is NOT whether we are going to go for these, although technically they make little sense but then again, that is not the issues. The problem is why we ALWAYS act so prematurely. We call China as our friend, cant we learn this one little thing from them? Screw the hard work thing, just at least learn to have a bit of patience and humility from them. Learn to wait for the right moment before unveiling/boasting about the procurement.

ADA Class statement is given by Turkish Defence Minister so either entire world is going crazy or Navy leadership is keeping details to themselves for now.

 

[Arsalan]

ADA Class statement is given by Turkish Defence Minister so either entire world is going crazy or Navy leadership is keeping details to themselves for now.

Well i was talking about discussing ALTAY here not Ada Class corvettes.
Perhaps you missed that, AGAIN!

As for the Ada Class, there MAY be talks going on but what i have to say about this is that it do not makes much sense to me for reasons explained earlier. Still, i hope that those in the decision making positions are better educated and will make the decision in the best interest of Pakistan.

 

[ozi2000]

Daily Views
Jun 11, 2016 Bilal Khan -
MILGEM Part 2: What will Pakistan gain from the MILGEM?


This article will evaluate the Ada-class/MILGEM on its own merits. This will not be a comparative study (between the Ada-class and Zulfiqar-class, for example) – this will be reserved for part-three. Part-one provided an overview of the Pakistan Navy’s requirements.

The Ada-class corvette is a part of the MILGEM, Turkey’s national warship program. The MILGEM program was started around the time Turkey had decided to principally source its defence needs domestically. The first component of the MILGEM program was the Ada-class corvette.

The ship displaces at 2300 tons and is powered by a combined diesel and gas (CODAG) propulsion system. In practice, the ship would use its diesel engines while cruising, and when in need for high-speed movement, switch-on its gas turbine. The Ada-class corvette has a range of 6500km at 15 knots, and an endurance of three weeks with auxiliary support (and ten days without). The ship can operate in sea state 5 and (to a lesser extent) sea state 6 conditions. Sea state refers to the condition of a large body of water, such as an area in the sea. At Sea State 5 and 6, the Ada-class corvette can operate in rough conditions, i.e. with waves reaching up to six metres in height.

The Ada-class corvette uses a steel hull with a composite superstructure (i.e. the parts atop of the hull). From the design phase, focus was kept on reducing the radar cross-section (RCS) as well as infrared (IR), acoustic, magnetic and hydrodynamic signatures of the ship. It also has a flight deck and hangar for one medium utility helicopter (such as the S-70 Black Hawk).

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Ada-class in as far as the physical parameters of the ship (i.e. the hull and propulsion systems) are concerned. If the Pakistan Navy has a need for a capable surface platform, the Ada-class would be among the ships that could meet those needs. However, the Navy is unlikely to acquire the Ada-class as simply an offshore patrol vessel (OPV) for peacetime patrol and policing tasks, it would need a multi-mission platform capable of substantively contributing to wartime defence needs. In other words, the real value – in terms of capability and cost – of this ship would be determined when one factors in the on-board sensors, electronics and weapon systems, particularly its anti-air warfare (AAW) systems.

The Ada-class corvette in service with the Turkish Navy uses a mix of indigenous and imported subsystems and weapons. An excellent layout of the Ada-class’ subsystems and weapons can be viewed here. The MILGEM Batch-II (or MILGEM-G) is a slightly longer version of the Ada (by 10 metres), but has room for 16 vertical launch system (VLS) cells. This is in lieu of the TF-100 light frigate program, which was more ambitious in its scope. The MILGEM-G was likely chosen on the basis of being less complex and costly.

Based on what is shown, a number of the vital sensors are of foreign origin, such as the Thales SMART-S Mk2 air surveillance radar and Thales Sting EO Mk2 fire control radar and electro-optical tracking system, among others. While acquiring the Turkish subsystems, such as the Aselsan ALPER low probability of intercept (LPI) radar, should not be a problem, some measure of third party contact will likely be required in order to source a radar suitable for AAW.

Due to likely vendor sensitivities, be it from Turkey or any of the other Western suppliers involved in the MILGEM (or MILGEM-G), the only outcome possible for Pakistan is to procure a Western radar. Its options could include Leonardo-Finmeccanica, Saab or even Aselsan, provided Aselsan could acquire re-export licenses for the SMART-S Mk2 from Thales Nederland.

The anti-ship warfare (AShW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) weapon systems will have to come from Western vendors as well. The Turkish Navy’s Ada-class corvettes are equipped with Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles (AShM) and Mk46 ASW torpedoes. Pakistan already operates both of these munitions on a number of its naval platforms, acquiring them should not necessarily be a problem. In the case that it is, Pakistan could potentially acquire alternatives from MBDA Italy. A less likely option would be Saab and its RBS-15 AShM and Lightweight Torpedo (LWT), but at this stage it is unclear to what extent Saab would be willing to release offensive hardware to Pakistan, especially with its current overtures to India.

In terms of AAW, the Ada-class is currently protected by a point-defence missile system (PDMS) in the form of the Raytheon RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). The RAM is basically a close-in weapons system (CIWS) meant for protecting a surface warship from incoming AShM and nearby aircraft. There is nothing inherently contentious in exporting the RAM to Pakistan, but if that avenue is closed, already exported CIWS solutions – such as the Phalanx – could be considered.

In addition, such a warship ought to have short to medium-range AAW capability, which is afforded through vertical launch systems (VLS). Commonly used systems include the MBDA Aster-15 and Raytheon Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM). The latter will be used on the Turkish Navy’s MILGEM-Gs. If Pakistan is unable to acquire the ESSM, it could consider MBDA or Denel Dynamics. MBDA UK could be approached for the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM), but it will be an expensive and potentially troublesome from regulatory and long-term support standpoints.

There may be more flexibility in that Pakistan could talk to Denel Dynamics in South Africa, which does have experience integrating its Umkhonto with the Thales SMART-S radar (and should not have problems with Saab if Pakistan were to acquire a Giraffe radar). Ideally, the Umkhonto-EIR – with a range of 25-35km – would be available in time for Pakistan to use on the MILGEM (ideally MILGEM-G) and other ships.

One might have noticed a major underlying point in the article – the MILGEM is not the most cost-flexible system. Fortunately, the climb from the current Ada-class to the VLS-equipped MILGEM-G is relatively marginal, so the added cost of getting a ship better suited for AAW is not significant (cannot necessarily say the same about the ship in general).

This is going to be a significant investment for the Navy, and it could truly impact its acquisition route moving forward. Like any other complex system, there is an investment required in raising the base to operate the corvette; training personnel, sourcing and/or producing parts, domestic maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) capacity, etc. In fact, these vessels will likely be built in Pakistan, hence there is also an industrial input to be accounted for as well.

Thinking back to the article about Pakistan’s potential frigate options, the acquisition of the MILGEM (or MILGEM-G) would likely close any other frigate outcome. Pakistan’s limited fiscal capacity and the costs involved in committing to a comparatively costly platform means that Pakistan will likely (and would be advised to) stick with the MILGEM platform for its mainstay needs.

Part-three will offer a comparative analysis of the MILGEM to other potential options, but to emphasize a key point should Pakistan decide to choose the MILGEM – Pakistan will stick with the MILGEM. While a sufficiently capable design, its value as a multi-mission combatant will depend on the subsystems Pakistan succeeds in sourcing. The better the radars, sensors, combat management systems, and weapon systems, the superior the overall system. For Pakistan, intricately learning about the MILGEM design, and in time, becoming capable of integrating diverse electronics and weapons suites will be vital, so as to draw the full value of the acquisition.


http://quwa.org/2016/06/11/part-2-will-pakistan-gain-milgem/