Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Tank131]

ToT is so generic a term that can mean right to assemble the product from kits to manufacturing the material and subsystems and putting the finished product together having made it from scratch. Pakistan only bought the ToT to assemble from kits supplied by the french (agosta) and chinese (f22p) ot doesn't have the ability to put the raw material into the finished product. Now that is not true of something like the jf17 which Pakistan makes 58% of the components and subsystems from scratch. The point of the Naval ToT was manufacturing jobs.

 

[Quwa]

In any case, if they are indeed looking to get the MILGEM, I hope it is the MILGEM-G, and I hope we one way or another fit at least 16 (ideally 32) Umkhonto EIR onto them. Even if we're talking about a 2500 ton light frigate, that's fair, let's just finally embrace the full platform and build an actual fleet!

 

[Quwa]

@Tank131 You mentioned a vital point about KSEW simply assembling foreign designs (so as to produce manufacturing jobs in Pakistan). The recent submarine deal with China seems to be a departure from that and more along the lines of the JF-17 program, with Pakistan bringing in genuine submarine manufacturing capacity and serious input in the design of what will emerge in the end. At apparently $500mn-plus a unit, this is a serious project.

I hope we embark on our surface combatant program in the same manner. If we are indeed interested in the MILGEM series, then not only should we go for the MILGEM-G, but we should try and absorb as much of it internally. We need enough domestic competency to build a standardized fleet. The line has to be drawn, we need to stick to something and build upon it. If not MILGEM, then a derivative of the F-22P or C28A.

At 110 metres and 2820 tons in displacement (not sure if it's full load), the MILGEM-G would be a good light frigate. Forget corvettes, just aim for 12 fully capable MILGEM-G. Long-term, the trick would be to secure a medium/long-range SAM akin to the Barak-8. If Israel can fit such SAMs onto the Sa'ar 5, we could easily do so on the MILGEM-G.

Whether that means investing in the Umkhonto and Marlin programs or the NORINCO DK-10 is another story, but we need something in this department.

@Penguin I've been meaning to ask you... At present, it seems China's principal AIP is a Stirling design. I was told that Stirling is better for cold water environments, and not so much in the warm water conditions Pakistani submarines would operate in. Is this a valid point? And if so, does it mean that China's fuel-cell based AIP technology could be coming along? Or would Pakistan potentially be procuring the AIP systems for its submarines from a third party?

 

[Manidabest]

Just buy tf100 ada class and later go for 8 more f22 or 4 type054 if possible and 3 tf2000 we are buying submarines and upgrade old submarines

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

That is my concern as well--we asked for TOT---we got the French submarine Agosta 90----so now we have the ability to build french subs---we went ahead looking for the german subs---and what a drama it was---and we ended up with china.

So what happened to that TOT---, if you don't keep working on new projects---you forget what you learnt.

Same with the F22 frigate---we asked for TOT---we got it---now we are chasing the Turks for TOT----.

So---are we watching a TOT drama being played over here?

We need this kind of ships for offensive role and striking inside Indian territory.
@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @Horus @Arsalan @Quwa

 

[Super Falcon]

We are at least short on 10 ships 20missile boats and 20 helicopters

And we need brand new items for navy

We buy them in 15 year modernized plan can make us do it

4 to 6 out 10 ships should be dedicated to anti air role

 

[Nabil365]

Does the Ada class corvette have more significant advantages over type-056 and Buyan-M class corvette???

 

[Arsalan]

We need this kind of ships for offensive role and striking inside Indian territory.
@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @Horus @Arsalan @Quwa

It sure is an ambitious project of ROK Navy. However the FFX, the Incheon-class that it is actualy based on is labeled by the maker as "coastal defense frigates"
For me, what we need (other then the obvious submarine fleet) is better planed to be acquired in two phases. That being:

1. Get some 4-6 light frigates, ones that can complement the F22p frigates. Good point defense AAW capability along side better ASW and AShW should be what we must look for. Reduced radar signature and noise will be a plus.
2. About 4 heavier frigates with much better AAW capability for fleet/operational detachment protection. Must definitely go for VLS equipped armed with medium to long range SAM.

LACM on surface fleet is not a logical option until we can offer excellent air defense umbrella to those frigates (that will include long range ground based fighters and even they might not be enough and will required carrier based fighters, thus, this do not fit in with our doctrine and so it is NOT going to happen no matter how much one wishes for it). For this land attack role and for a possible future second strike capability, PN will rely on submarines for foreseeable and even unforeseeable future.

Does the Ada class corvette have more significant advantages over type-056 and Buyan-M class corvette???

Milgem is heavier and is better armed.
SAM ==== 21 RAM ( Milgem) vs 8 FL-3000N (Type 56)
ASM===== 8 Harpoon (Milgem) vs 4 YJ-83 (Type 56)
However for its weight class, it better be compared with some frigate like F22p if there is really a need for comparison.

 

[Quwa]

It sure is an ambitious project of ROK Navy. However the FFX, the Incheon-class that it is actualy based on is labeled by the maker as "coastal defense frigates"
For me, what we need (other then the obvious submarine fleet) is better planed to be acquired in two phases. That being:

1. Get some 4-6 light frigates, ones that can complement the F22p frigates. Good point defense AAW capability along side better ASW and AShW should be what we must look for. Reduced radar signature and noise will be a plus.
2. About 4 heavier frigates with much better AAW capability for fleet/operational detachment protection. Must definitely go for VLS equipped armed with medium to long range SAM.

LACM on surface fleet is not a logical option until we can offer excellent air defense umbrella to those frigates (that will include long range ground based fighters and even they might not be enough and will required carrier based fighters, thus, this do not fit in with our doctrine and so it is NOT going to happen no matter how much one wishes for it). For this land attack role and for a possible future second strike capability, PN will rely on submarines for foreseeable and even unforeseeable future.

I'd say a heavier AAW frigate would be the culmination of several steps - which we have yet to take:

• Building an actual fleet of light frigates or heavy corvettes to patrol the SLOC, keep up coalition support commitments, provide some kind of air umbrella to the submarines, etc. Once the Type 21s are gone, we would basically be short 8 ships; it'd be best to go for that many MILGEM-G.
  
  
• Procuring a MR/LR SAM that we could actually use from a variety of platforms. I imagine HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 would necessitate the heavier frigate, but we don't have the funds to field many such ships. In other words, we can't hinge our AAW bets on those missiles, we need smaller ESSM/CAMM/Barak-8 like alternatives.
  
  Whether it would be investing in Denel's Umkhonto and Marlin lines or NORINCO's DK-10, we need to pick up on a project and stick to it. An MR-SAM like the Umkhonto-EIR could be fit onto the MILGEM-G and F-22P, and in time, we could upgrade those to the 60km+ Umkhonto R.
  
  
• In terms of LACM. We need to develop our arsenal - a lighter/smaller version of the Babur which could be fit into a VLS cell on a MILGEM-G would be neat (akin to the Klub LACM on the Buyan-M).

With the light frigate fleet and SAM capability at hand, we can begin scaling to other applications. On one extreme, we could perhaps build small sub-1000 ton corvettes packed with AShW, ASW and AAW capabilities (to guard our littoral waters). On the other end, we could then procure and readily arm 4 heavier AAW frigates.

 

[Zain Malik]

And we need brand new items for navy

First of all we need an aircraft carrier.....!!
BASIC NEED OF PAKISTAN NAVY...!!

 

[Arsalan]

I'd say a heavier AAW frigate would be the culmination of several steps - which we have yet to take:

• Building an actual fleet of light frigates or heavy corvettes to patrol the SLOC, keep up coalition support commitments, provide some kind of air umbrella to the submarines, etc. Once the Type 21s are gone, we would basically be short 8 ships; it'd be best to go for that many MILGEM-G.

Agreed with. That is why i mentioned 4-6 lighter frigates/corvettes will be required that have decent point defense AAW capabilities, good ASW and AShW capabilities. All this point to something developed along the lines of F22p or Milgem (Only joining the whole project will make sense with 4+4 ada+TF100 frigates)

• Procuring a MR/LR SAM that we could actually use from a variety of platforms. I imagine HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 would necessitate the heavier frigate, but we don't have the funds to field many such ships. In other words, we can't hinge our AAW bets on those missiles, we need smaller ESSM/CAMM/Barak-8 like alternatives.

Whether it would be investing in Denel's Umkhonto and Marlin lines or NORINCO's DK-10, we need to pick up on a project and stick to it. An MR-SAM like the Umkhonto-EIR could be fit onto the MILGEM-G and F-22P, and in time, we could upgrade those to the 60km+ Umkhonto R.

Well if we can get something to integrate in the existing and also the above mentioned ships AND if that can be upgraded to give that much needed medium-high range cover in some future upgrades or variants, then great. If we are not able to procure any such thing, i will again say that the existing plus the new above mentioned boats with decent point defense AAW along with a future heavier class of frigate equipped with that 60-80 Km range SAM would work well as well, For that we may look towards HQ-16 or HQ-9 as well since there are plans to induct ground based variants as well. It is however a big MAY BE for now.

• In terms of LACM. We need to develop our arsenal - a lighter/smaller version of the Babur which could be fit into a VLS cell on a MILGEM-G would be neat (akin to the Klub LACM on the Buyan-M).

Yeah it will look good and will surely be neat sir but do you think there will be any significant advantages in war scenario?
These ships are so small they wont be able to defend themselves against enemy air attack from there ground based planes as well as carrier group. We will need EXCELLENT air cover and as of now we don't have an excellent one even in shape of ground based planes let alone carrier based. I wont recommend investing huge amounts into such projects as i see these very vulnerable in war time however if we can develop some LACM version that can be fitted in these same tubes or something, that it, find some way to induct these LACM on our platforms without investing much, then sure it will be awesome.

With the light frigate fleet and SAM capability at hand, we can begin scaling to other applications. On one extreme, we could perhaps build small sub-1000 ton corvettes packed with AShW, ASW and AAW capabilities (to guard our littoral waters). On the other end, we could then procure and readily arm 4 heavier AAW frigates.

Agreed again, light frigate fleet of around 10-12 ships minimum with decent point defense AAW is required first (not considering submarine fleet) and then move on to other more ambitious projects.

 

[syed_yusuf]

it seems PN is going for Ada batch 2 configuration. 110 meter long ~2990 ton heavy with 16 SSM and 32 VLS anti air missiles. a goo large corvette or medium size frigate. could be a good additions

 

[Moon]

First of all we need an aircraft carrier.....!!
BASIC NEED OF PAKISTAN NAVY...!!

Maintaining and keeping an aircraft carrier is more of a liability, compared to what it would be to PN as an asset. And PN has no need of it.
Forget the aircraft carrier for the next 50 years.
At-topic:
Soooooo, will these be built in Pakistan?
Though I honestly prefer more F-22Ps, with an upgraded on-board computer systems which should be home-built and integrated, and slight structural changes to make it more stealthy-ish. F-22P has great potential, if we can buy it's hulls in dirt cheap prices from China, and retrofit them with indigenous systems or purchase them separately, it would let us keep jobs KSEW, and have a formidable fleet of ships (for minimum deterrence).

 

[Tank131]

it seems PN is going for Ada batch 2 configuration. 110 meter long ~2990 ton heavy with 16 SSM and 32 VLS anti air missiles. a goo large corvette or medium size frigate. could be a good additions

Any evidence of that? I hope you are right but given some of the head scratching moves I've seen regarding naval acquisition im not convinced until we have official confirmation. Also Milgem G has a 16 cell mk41 vls not 32. Beyond that it is said to be fitted with phalanx rather than RAM. For PN it will be vital if thwy go for the Milgem G that they find an alternative to ESSM which will be used in the VLS for Turkey. CAMM would be one. Any varient of umkhonto-er-ir or Umkhonto-R which could be quad packed (if possible) of potentially a quad packed varient of dk10 from china.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan should become partners in these projects.