Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[UkroTurk]

ADA class ships have Low Radar Cross Section.
Greek radars can not find them

 

[Penguin]

sorry bro couldn't understand this point.will you pls explain it in little bit detail

"What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant."
How good the other guys air defences are simply is not relevant in assessing how good my own air defences are.
I can put together a perfectly good and effective ship self defence AAW package with missiles that have a range of less than 90km (Barak 8). It matters not at all that my AAW area coverage/range is less (or more) than their AAW area coverage/range, so long as mine is effective at killing the air targets they present me with. What does matter, is the kind of air targets your AAW system has to deal with.

ADA class ships have Low Radar Cross Section.
Greek radars can not find them

You mean older Dutch Signaal/Thales radars then. Of the kind Turkey uses too eg on Yavuz class Meko's and Kılıç class and other missile boats ;-)

"cannot find them" is an overstatement
a smaller RCS just makes you look like a fishing boat.
unless and untill you emit and your opponent uses data-fusion to merge radar and ESM data.

Here is an article that was published last year and it quotes the price of the Lead Ship to be around $260 million.
http://navalanalyses.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/ada-class-corvettes-of-turkish-navy.html

Ok, I was aware of that article, just not that it was the source for the data floating in this thread

However in 2013 due to setback the price doubled.

That setback was what I referred to earlier. Non-competitive bidding proces. But what is the source of the price doubling, and why did the price double?

If we take the price to be ~ 400 million then 1.6 Billion for 4 as this is going to be constructed in Pakistan hence the price would be around 1.5 Billion. The amount would go down when more ships are ordered. We could see a new tender for the Turkish Navy soon as one of the ships is due by next month.

That's still all assumption at this point.

 

[Hell hound]

"What does it matter for your own air defence if IN ships have a 90km SAM? It simply is not relevant."
How good the other guys air defences are simply is not relevant in assessing how good my own air defences are.
I can put together a perfectly good and effective ship self defence AAW package with missiles that have a range of less than 90km (Barak 8). It matters not at all that my AAW area coverage/range is less (or more) than their AAW area coverage/range, so long as mine is effective at killing the air targets they present me with. What does matter, is the kind of air targets your AAW system has to deal with.

i wasn't comparing PN's anti air capability with IN's but was afraid of brahmos and mig29 they will be the aerial threat we will be facing in the war we need mid if not long range sams to defend our ships before these guys can do the damage to us our air force will be stretched thin and may not be able to provide the required cover to the navy thats why we need some contingency plans like a potent mid range sam which these Turkish ship will not come with.
these guys will be eaten alive in the case of Indian raid

 

[Zarvan]

 

[Muhammad Omar]

As the News that PN is interested in South African Missiles does it mean that PN is looking for FD-100 Rather then ADA Class Corvette??

 

[airmarshal]

I found some info regarding T-129 and its engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/t129

Its a consortium that builds the engines. So it does not seem to me sanctions prone. May be experts can weigh in.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

That setback was what I referred to earlier. Non-competitive bidding proces. But what is the source of the price doubling, and why did the price double?

The reasons are still unclear but it is commonly thought that Turkey realised the NATO countries were trying to restrict the sales of these ships to other countries hence all the technology was needed to be researched and manufactured locally.

The other problem was also the Turkish economy had to improve that meant revamping the LIRA. How true these are is hard to assess.

That's still all assumption at this point.

Yes. But this is most likely the reason otherwise Pakistan would have gone for more F-22P or upgraded version.

 

[Hexciter]

http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-best-navy-corvettes-4177250/

 

[airmarshal]

http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-best-navy-corvettes-4177250/

Wow! its one of the best in the world. This is a great development for Turkey.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Ada is a smaller size ship , well equipped no doubt , if it comes with a quality SAM system would be a great addition

tf-100 frigate would be better bet

 

[Arsalan]

No it really is not a shock to anyone who have been following the military developments. This is under DISCUSSION since 2012 It is nothing new. The question i asked was totally diferent, you may want to re read that post dear.

While the "news" is not a shock, there sure are a number of things in your post that were new and a bit shocking to me, i hope you can help us ALL by clarifying on that.

T-129 ATAK are equivalent or in some aspects exceed in performance over the Zulu. Hence they are being considered as force multipliers.

Which expects it actually "exceeds" the Zulu? Also, i am sure that the T129 are not force multipliers sir. These are attack helicopters. You are reading too much into this and may want to look up what a force multiplier is. Also the disadvantages of T129 have bene debated to death and i do not need to go doen that same road, AGAIN! you can look that up in the relevant thread. There are certain issues that need to be addressed first. I hope they will be and we wont end up in a close ally once again.

Z-20 are considered as equivalent to Apache. When India ordered these then PAA had to find an alternate to counter, hence the requirement of Z-20 arose. These Helicopters would give PAA a multi tier capabilities.

\
Z-20 is a medium lift helicopter, Apache is an attack helicopter. DON'T KNOW WHO ON EARTH WILL CONSIDER THEM SIMILAR LET ALONE EQUIVALENT.

Mi-35 These would be used for Special Operation and Rescue missions from hostile environment. Hence the requirement would be very limited. No more that 1 sqd.

True, the will, once procured, find themselves in action with special forces. Quick insertion, fire support, quick extraction! That is what these are meant for.

Sir, we have all been hearing about Pakistan joining the Milgem project since the late 2000. Various number of MOU's have been singed over the years so it does not seem it would take 2 years from today to get the final deal done.

During IDEAS 2012 there was a news regarding Turkey would manufacture Milgem in Pakistan and build facility at Gwadar. It seems both projects are going as per plan. Still one can not be sure till the iron cutting.

Exactly.

The cost of upgrading the F-22P with Turkish systems was very similar to the actual cost of Milgem hence it was on the cards as soon as Pakistan realised that USA is not going to provide the Perry Class Frigates. The only reason PN did not disclose this earlier was it expected USA to fund some other project though that was not approved.

What upgrades? F22p are NOT scheduled for any upgrades anytime soon dear and you are talking about cost comparisons? Even if that was the case (WHICH I CONFIRM AGAIN IS NOT THE CASE) the costs are not going to be similar as well.

What the Turk's give to Pakistan in this project is a common platform leading to a Destroyer. Some thing that could not have been attained by other platforms.

It is NOT the same platform. Not even the same project. You miss understood what i was saying. Here, let me try again,

Milgem project covers corvettes (8 as per plan) (ada class, the ones we are hearing about right now) and also heavier frigates (4 as per plan) (TF-100 Class). These are NOT SAME ships, just being build under one project called MILGEM (Milli Gem meaning National Ship in Turkish).
THEN, there is no destroyer under this project. The TF-2000 will be a separate project. The only connection is that TF-100 technology know how will play some role in the destroyer project of the future, that is it.

Most of the PDF members were of the opinion that PN would go for a Chinese Destroyer though in very limited numbers but that did not serve the purpose.

What purpose?

Sir,
May be it is the TF-100 that would be built...Milgem can be modified with a VLS system which gives PN enough capability. The requirement is what VLS system is chosen to give it equivalent capabilities to that of TF-100.

But the news you are basing all this argument on is about ADA class corvettes.

PAA was always interested in T-129 B (upgraded version). May be PAA is confident that the Turk's have found a suitable engine that is not prone to western sanctions and approvals.

I just hope they have and that we have though about that.


All in all sir, please stop creating hype out of nothing, twisting facts out of patriotism. Being patriotic is great but is it starts effecting logical thinking then it becomes a problem.
I hope you will be able to look at the previous post and the questions asked here and think about this logically, that will help you a lot in understanding the situation.

Is their enough space in current ADA class design to integrate 8 to 10 VLS tubes in them ?

12 or 16 cell VLS can be fitted if we slightly modify the design (IF we actually do go for procurement) but what missile you will like to be used form those VLS? Turks them self are using ESSM from VLS on there OHP on some of there ships.

 

[Zarvan]

No it really is not a shock to anyone who have been following the military developments. This is under DISCUSSION since 2012 It is nothing new. The question i asked was totally diferent, you may want to re read that post dear.

While the "news" is not a shock, there sure are a number of things in your post that were new and a bit shocking to me, i hope you can help us ALL by clarifying on that.

Which expects it actually "exceeds" the Zulu? Also, i am sure that the T129 are not force multipliers sir. These are attack helicopters. You are reading too much into this and may want to look up what a force multiplier is. Also the disadvantages of T129 have bene debated to death and i do not need to go doen that same road, AGAIN! you can look that up in the relevant thread. There are certain issues that need to be addressed first. I hope they will be and we wont end up in a close ally once again.

\
Z-20 is a medium lift helicopter, Apache is an attack helicopter. DON'T KNOW WHO ON EARTH WILL CONSIDER THEM SIMILAR LET ALONE EQUIVALENT.


True, the will, once procured, find themselves in action with special forces. Quick insertion, fire support, quick extraction! That is what these are meant for.


Exactly.


What upgrades? F22p are NOT scheduled for any upgrades anytime soon dear and you are talking about cost comparisons? Even if that was the case (WHICH I CONFIRM AGAIN IS NOT THE CASE) the costs are not going to be similar as well.


It is NOT the same platform. Not even the same project. You miss understood what i was saying. Here, let me try again,

Milgem project covers corvettes (8 as per plan) (ada class, the ones we are hearing about right now) and also heavier frigates (4 as per plan) (TF-100 Class). These are NOT SAME ships, just being build under one project called MILGEM (Milli Gem meaning National Ship in Turkish).
THEN, there is no destroyer under this project. The TF-2000 will be a separate project. The only connection is that TF-100 technology know how will play some role in the destroyer project of the future, that is it.


What purpose?



But the news you are basing all this argument on is about ADA class corvettes.


I just hope they have and that we have though about that.


All in all sir, please stop creating hype out of nothing, twisting facts out of patriotism. Being patriotic is great but is it starts effecting logical thinking then it becomes a problem.
I hope you will be able to look at the previous post and the questions asked here and think about this logically, that will help you a lot in understanding the situation.


12 or 16 cell VLS can be fitted if we slightly modify the design (IF we actually do go for procurement) but what missile you will like to be used form those VLS? Turks them self are using ESSM from VLS on there OHP on some of there ships.

Pakistan should buy these 4 ADA class Corvettes eventually increasing to 8 of them and also increase 4 F-22P to 8. But still we would need Frigates with massive number of VLS tubes to not juts fire Air Defence systems but also long range cruise Missile to give us offensive punch because they are totally defensive ships also are F-22P

No it really is not a shock to anyone who have been following the military developments. This is under DISCUSSION since 2012 It is nothing new. The question i asked was totally diferent, you may want to re read that post dear.

While the "news" is not a shock, there sure are a number of things in your post that were new and a bit shocking to me, i hope you can help us ALL by clarifying on that.

Which expects it actually "exceeds" the Zulu? Also, i am sure that the T129 are not force multipliers sir. These are attack helicopters. You are reading too much into this and may want to look up what a force multiplier is. Also the disadvantages of T129 have bene debated to death and i do not need to go doen that same road, AGAIN! you can look that up in the relevant thread. There are certain issues that need to be addressed first. I hope they will be and we wont end up in a close ally once again.

\
Z-20 is a medium lift helicopter, Apache is an attack helicopter. DON'T KNOW WHO ON EARTH WILL CONSIDER THEM SIMILAR LET ALONE EQUIVALENT.


True, the will, once procured, find themselves in action with special forces. Quick insertion, fire support, quick extraction! That is what these are meant for.


Exactly.


What upgrades? F22p are NOT scheduled for any upgrades anytime soon dear and you are talking about cost comparisons? Even if that was the case (WHICH I CONFIRM AGAIN IS NOT THE CASE) the costs are not going to be similar as well.


It is NOT the same platform. Not even the same project. You miss understood what i was saying. Here, let me try again,

Milgem project covers corvettes (8 as per plan) (ada class, the ones we are hearing about right now) and also heavier frigates (4 as per plan) (TF-100 Class). These are NOT SAME ships, just being build under one project called MILGEM (Milli Gem meaning National Ship in Turkish).
THEN, there is no destroyer under this project. The TF-2000 will be a separate project. The only connection is that TF-100 technology know how will play some role in the destroyer project of the future, that is it.


What purpose?



But the news you are basing all this argument on is about ADA class corvettes.


I just hope they have and that we have though about that.


All in all sir, please stop creating hype out of nothing, twisting facts out of patriotism. Being patriotic is great but is it starts effecting logical thinking then it becomes a problem.
I hope you will be able to look at the previous post and the questions asked here and think about this logically, that will help you a lot in understanding the situation.


12 or 16 cell VLS can be fitted if we slightly modify the design (IF we actually do go for procurement) but what missile you will like to be used form those VLS? Turks them self are using ESSM from VLS on there OHP on some of there ships.

I am not interested in Air Defense I am interested in using those VLS to launch cruise Missiles on my beloved city Mumbai and other Indian cities

 

[Arsalan]

Pakistan should buy these 4 ADA class Corvettes eventually increasing to 8 of them and also increase 4 F-22P to 8. But still we would need Frigates with massive number of VLS tubes to not juts fire Air Defence systems but also long range cruise Missile to give us offensive punch because they are totally defensive ships also are F-22P

Sorry but I was asking what missile will you want in the VLS you were asking for regarding MILGEM? Even if we manage to fit in a 12-16 cell VLS what missiles you think should come with it?

As for the numbers I will agree to some extent. Ideally, we must have some 6-8 ASW/AShW frigates 2500-3500 ton category (the F22p or a future modification OR these Milgem project boats can address that). Plus we need 6 to 8 frigates with better air defense capabilities. For land attack, frigates won’t be much useful. We will need destroyers for that providing fleet air defense along with land attack capabilities. The problem is, there are other much more important areas that have to be addressed first. Such procurement can happen if we win some lottery ticket but if we are looking to gradually increase the capabilities based on the rumored growing economy then things will come slow and there will be other areas that will be handles on priority before any land attack destroyers. Also for the start, PN will be better off inducting limited land attack capability via submarines (that is one of the priority areas that I am talking about). So for now, frigates and subs are all we may see coming and we better hope that the frigates comes with better AAW capabilities. We are in a serious need of that!

I am not interested in Air Defense I am interested in using those VLS to launch cruise Missiles on my beloved city Mumbai and other Indian cities

No ship without EXCELLENT AAW capability will be able to come close to attacking a land target. We will need excellent fleet cover for that to protect against carrier launched and land based aircraft. Plus there are these things called anti-ship missiles. Need protection against all that and for that we need AAW ships. Limited land attack role for now is best left with submarines.

 

[Zarvan]

Sorry but I was asking what missile will you want in the VLS you were asking for regarding MILGEM? Even if we manage to fit in a 12-16 cell VLS what missiles you think should come with it?

As for the numbers I will agree to some extent. Ideally, we must have some 6-8 ASW/AShW frigates 2500-3500 ton category (the F22p or a future modification OR these Milgem project boats can address that). Plus we need 6 to 8 frigates with better air defense capabilities. For land attack, frigates won’t be much useful. We will need destroyers for that providing fleet air defense along with land attack capabilities. The problem is, there are other much more important areas that have to be addressed first. Such procurement can happen if we win some lottery ticket but if we are looking to gradually increase the capabilities based on the rumored growing economy then things will come slow and there will be other areas that will be handles on priority before any land attack destroyers. Also for the start, PN will be better off inducting limited land attack capability via submarines (that is one of the priority areas that I am talking about). So for now, frigates and subs are all we may see coming and we better hope that the frigates comes with better AAW capabilities. We are in a serious need of that!

We should use our Naval version of Babur and for Air Defence we can integrate HISAR of Turkey or
Umkhonto (missile) of South Africa

 

[Quwa]

@cabatli_53 What's the ETA on the Hisar-A and Hisar-O? If Pakistan begins to receive its Ada-class corvettes after 2020, would the Hisar-O be ready?