Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[RAMPAGE]

we need Altay Tanks too..... minimum 100

Hazaron khuahishain aesi kai ....

 

[Manidabest]

Hazaron khuahishain aesi kai ....

Inshallah puri hojain gien

 

[Blue Marlin]

Don't know the definitive answer but if constructing the F22Ps and Augustas at Karachi takes making naval grade steel then I guess yes.

it can be imported too

 

[Zarvan]

Hazaron khuahishain aesi kai ....

Well we are keeping an eye on it and chances of Altay coming to Pakistan are more than ever. As for Ada class eventually their number would be increased to 8 along with 8 F-22 P but still we would need Frigates like Istanbul class and Multi Role Frigate shown by China to give our Navy offensive punch.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I m still not sure about the attack helicopter T129 deal. How can someone as credible than Turkish Defense Minister can claim about the deal agreement when Turkey even don't have an export liscence for the helicopter. US will never allow their engines passing to Pak through some other country. If the news is true than either US has already approved the deal or T129 will have new power plants for its export version which doesn't look a convenient solution for Turkey.

Reis Erdogan started his career, while being in elementary school, by selling lemons at the Sunday Market. He knows a thing or two about making deals..

 

[Super Falcon]

Problem is with our Navy they show interest nothing practical they do

Remember
U 214
TF2000
MILEGAM

nothing happen add more ada class

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Z 10, Z 19 ,AH 1Z , MI 35 and now T 129 . how will PAA maintain many kinds of HELIs ? by the way , I think army has decided to boost its anti tank capabilities . but choosing many platforms is not a right decision.

PAA requires attack helis for various operational environments. For this very reason they have to opt for almost all the kinds that are available.
Z-19 were never tested. PAA operates the French Fennec helicopters for a similar role.

AH 1 Cobra helicopters of PAA are old and are to be replaced. AH 1Z Zulu are expected to enter PAA in 2018 but these would not replace the existing helis on a one on one basis.

T-129 ATAK are equivalent or in some aspects exceed in performance over the Zulu. Hence they are being considered as force multipliers.

Z-20 are considered as equivalent to Apache. When India ordered these then PAA had to find an alternate to counter, hence the requirement of Z-20 arose. These Helicopters would give PAA a multi tier capabilities.

Mi-35 These would be used for Special Operation and Rescue missions from hostile environment. Hence the requirement would be very limited. No more that 1 sqd.

I think these are just preliminary discussions. negotiations if things move forward would take up to 2 years. US approval for the T129 engine would also be required. this is going to be expensive, costing more than similar Chinese systems. where will the money come from.

Sir, we have all been hearing about Pakistan joining the Milgem project since the late 2000. Various number of MOU's have been singed over the years so it does not seem it would take 2 years from today to get the final deal done.

During IDEAS 2012 there was a news regarding Turkey would manufacture Milgem in Pakistan and build facility at Gwadar. It seems both projects are going as per plan. Still one can not be sure till the iron cutting.

Sure these are good ships, we were showing some interest in these from the very start of project but there is one little thing that i am not able to understand. What do these ships exactly offer in term of capability that we lacked from our F22p or the proposed/suggested F22p frigates? IF it is about "not putting all eggs in one basket" we can term this as a wise decision but ALL other things happening with military advise that there is no such long term planning or thinking being done so where this one off event came from?
Anyway, i will welcome any such deal, if it happens. That will mean that we will at least be trying to retain our two last friends in the international world, namely China and Turkey (i fail to think of a third name) and that is actually good news (though a bit ironic). Even if it means additional costs in logistics, maintenance, it may well be worth it. On paper, four improved F22p/Type 54A would make more sense tactically but keeping friends is a bit more important in our case and a wise decision. Also will bring some diversification. HOWEVER, I DO HOPE THAT IS THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH, THAT IS NOT THE LAST OF IT. We must then go for either Type54A+ or the likes with better AAW capabilities (to make Chinese ships the main force and Ada Class for diversification) or join in the TF100 OR even TF2000 program (to make the Turks our main suppliers of surface fleet, will LOVE that even though i do not see that happening)

Sir, hope this news did not surprise you too much...Did give you a hint in the other thread.
The cost of upgrading the F-22P with Turkish systems was very similar to the actual cost of Milgem hence it was on the cards as soon as Pakistan realised that USA is not going to provide the Perry Class Frigates. The only reason PN did not disclose this earlier was it expected USA to fund some other project though that was not approved.

What the Turk's give to Pakistan in this project is a common platform leading to a Destroyer. Some thing that could not have been attained by other platforms.

Most of the PDF members were of the opinion that PN would go for a Chinese Destroyer though in very limited numbers but that did not serve the purpose.

The FT100 class frigates wont be something that we will be able to upgrades our MILGEM Corvettes into. They will have a bigger hull, meaning, a different ship. We may include some subsystems but with China working on much more projects, i guess procuring those sub systems for future upgrades from them would have been much easier.

Not sure about the operation costs but there surely will be difference. For one factor, Milgem have some 93 men on board while F22p and Type 54A have 165-170. This alone means difference in operational costs.
EDIT: Now i looked at the propulsion details and the difference keeps on getting bigger and that speculation keep sounding more and more realistic.

Sir,
May be it is the TF-100 that would be built...Milgem can be modified with a VLS system which gives PN enough capability. The requirement is what VLS system is chosen to give it equivalent capabilities to that of TF-100.

I posted this news on Indian Defence Forums to check their reaction. As always our beloved neighbors didn't disappoint me.

On some they are really showing shock. The best way is not to comment...

You have asked to @Penguin but let me answer for the VLS cells. There is adequate volume and area which is not utilized and small size VLS could be fitted there easily. So 16 for milgem 1 and 32 for milgem 2 isnt a dream.
A month at most needed to fit it there even on existing ships.

Sir,
Why has Turkey not installed any VLS capability on her existing fleet?

No Mate i am not Neptune, though he is around here @Neptune ,sometimes.

Light CAFRAD might be applied on a new frigate after TF2000 but it would mean a long way till then. A whole CAFRAD would be waste of money on such a small vessel, while an integrated tower with reduced version would be a boost. If Pakistan desires to be so , HHQ might be install but i have deep fears that chinese guys would copy tiny details from Milgem ,and this is so far only my worry. I have began to consider,will Turkey give a full Ada class,or rather a reduced version, or a version designed upon need of Pakistan? At the moment design offices are quite busy in here and that would lead to delays.

Sir,
The CAFRAD system is still not 100% complete hence it might be wise to integrate it on TF-2000.
Do you think for PN it would be wise to spend this money on CAFRAD so that Milgem can act as command and control centre which can effectively out class the opponents?

PN might not procure TF-2000 for some time.

I m still not sure about the attack helicopter T129 deal. How can someone as credible than Turkish Defense Minister can claim about the deal agreement when Turkey even don't have an export liscence for the helicopter. US will never allow their engines passing to Pak through some other country. If the news is true than either US has already approved the deal or T129 will have new power plants for its export version which doesn't look a convenient solution for Turkey.

PAA was always interested in T-129 B (upgraded version). May be PAA is confident that the Turk's have found a suitable engine that is not prone to western sanctions and approvals.

Moreover the US might stop sale of a complete system but not smaller components and subsystems. They earn more USD's this way and is good for creating jobs.

 

[cabatli_53]

If you modify current Milgem corvettes with additional MK-41 Vertical launchers, I suppose The valuable performance characteristics such as sea-keeping, endurance and stability will also be affected. It is the reason There is a project called Istanbul class frigate which is actually modified variant of Milgem on longer hull and bigger displacement. Milgem is designed for anti-submarine warfare role so It is not needed to integrate any VLS on hull but Istanbul class is considered as multi-purpose frigate which is going to replace Turkey's Yavuz class frigates.

Sir,
Why has Turkey not installed any VLS capability on her existing fleet?

Turkey's existing fleet (8 frigates) has VLS capability.

 

[Blue Marlin]

If you modify current Milgem corvettes with additional MK-41 Vertical launchers, I suppose The valuable performance characteristics such as sea-keeping, endurance and stability will also be affected. It is the reason There is a project called Istanbul class frigate which is actually modified variant of Milgem on longer hull and bigger displacement. Milgem is designed for anti-submarine warfare role so It is not needed to integrate any VLS on hull but Istanbul class is considered as multi-purpose frigate which is going to replace Turkey's Yavuz class frigates.

but nobody even knows that will happen, heck they may just go for the tf-100.
when will they start construction of the tf-100?

 

[Savas-Usta]

If you modify current Milgem corvettes with additional MK-41 Vertical launchers, I suppose The valuable performance characteristics such as sea-keeping, endurance and stability will also be affected. It is the reason There is a project called Istanbul class frigate which is actually modified variant of Milgem on longer hull and bigger displacement. Milgem is designed for anti-submarine warfare role so It is not needed to integrate any VLS on hull but Istanbul class is considered as multi-purpose frigate which is going to replace Turkey's Yavuz class frigates.

Bro Milgem was designed with the thought of integrating 1x MK41 VLS. The deck above the bow is higher than the deck at the stern, which is an indicator for height requirement for VLS integration. Why they didn't integrate VLS on MILGEM Corvette dispite having adequate space for one is a question we should be asking, perhaps they were waiting on development of a more potent ship - I-class .

 

[Zarvan]

If you modify current Milgem corvettes with additional MK-41 Vertical launchers, I suppose The valuable performance characteristics such as sea-keeping, endurance and stability will also be affected. It is the reason There is a project called Istanbul class frigate which is actually modified variant of Milgem on longer hull and bigger displacement. Milgem is designed for anti-submarine warfare role so It is not needed to integrate any VLS on hull but Istanbul class is considered as multi-purpose frigate which is going to replace Turkey's Yavuz class frigates.

Turkey's existing fleet (8 frigates) has VLS capability.

Is their enough space in current ADA class design to integrate 8 to 10 VLS tubes in them ?

 

[Beast]

Milgem class was offered to Pakistan around 4-5 years ago, maybe more. A military delegation from Pakistan were also visited TCG Heybeliada during construction phase but Pakistani officials selected Chinese proposal F-22P against Milgem.

With this way, I think Pakistan met the requirements of mission profile to be carried out by Milgem/F-22P class. It is the reason why I didn't get the point behind Why Pakistan wants to construct Milgem class warships at present. A deal containing the details of construction Istanbul class frigates would be more logical.

TCG Buyukada, Milgem

We don't know the details at present but There is one thing for sure that Pakistan and Turkey will not only collaborate for just state of art Milgem but also other Turkish warship projects including İstanbul class and TF-2000 class warships in following years. Milgem deal is a clear indication of Pakistan's changing route towards Turkey's naval solutions against Chinese alternatives. I don't know which factor enables Pakistani officials to alter route for Turkey. It is maybe because of quality issues tested by first hand but Pakistan-Turkey engineers on naval projects will construct the best solutions for World seas.

TCG Buyukada

So much smearing from the Turkish? Looks like some Turkish already poping champagne and talk all kind of nonsense when nothing has confirmed. The things that can be confim is PN bought F-22PN. It is a ship that custom fits for PN and fits their budget. People can talk all kind of nonsense like getting a 12000tons cruiser but end of the day when money is not available. All these are just pipe dream.

Algeria is so impressed with F-22P when they board it for visit that they bought 2 frigates from China called C28A and another 4 will be build in Algeria shipyard.

China can offer the similar kind of advance system and the best thing is everything is in house from China with 100% fit from engine, weapon to radar unlike some countries which crucial system all needs to import and sources from others. MK41 VLS is US, if I'm not wrong?

 

[Sulman Badshah]

So much smearing from the Turkish? Looks like some Turkish already poping champagne and talk all kind of nonsense when nothing has confirmed. The things that can be confim is PN bought F-22PN. It is a ship that custom fits for PN and fits their budget. People can talk all kind of nonsense like getting a 12000tons cruiser but end of the day when money is not available. All these are just pipe dream.

Algeria is so impressed with F-22P when they board it for visit that they bought 2 frigates from China called C28A and another 4 will be build in Algeria shipyard.

China can offer the similar kind of advance system and the best thing is everything is in house from China with 100% fit from engine, weapon to radar unlike some countries which crucial system all needs to import and sources from others. MK41 VLS is US, if I'm not wrong?

for frigates PN interest is with chinese "High performance frigate" .. it is cheap and effective

 

[Beast]

for frigates PN interest is with chinese "High performance frigate" .. it is cheap and effective

Precisely, I think Pakistan already has enough of US policy. US firing drone and killing at will in Pakistan own soil?

And ask yourself, how many US sub system the Turkish frigates has onboard? The crucial MK41 VLS is US and Turkey is still few decades away from developing such system.

Pakistan government is smart to stick with Chinese

 

[New World]

Tbh, there is no real categorization as far as I could conclude. Some air forces use a given aircraft for one role while the other uses it for another. Also, there has been movement of given types of trainer aircraft along the tiers over the years due to technological advancement. In today's textbook it goes something like this,

Ab initio (Very basic prop planes like the DA20)--> Basic (turbo prop aircraft like the Hurkus, Tucano, PC-9, etc.)--> Advanced (High subsonic speed aircraft like the K-8, Hawk, etc.) --> Lead-In fighter trainers or LIFT (Advanced jet trainer aircraft L-39, T-50) --> Operational Conversion Aircraft (two-seater versions of the mainstay jets like the F-16B, J-10S).

But like I said, different air forces use their aircraft in different tiers and at times have completely different tiers as well. For example, in the PAF the pilot starts with the Mushak which serves as the ab initio and the basic trainer, then goes onto the K-8/T-37 which serve as the advance trainers, then onto the FT-7 which serves as the LIFT and then to the fighter conversion aircraft (someone correct me if I'm mistaken, please).

The BAE Hawk for example is used as an Advance Trainer by some while as a LIFT by others.

thanks sir for clarifying my confusion..
yes you are saying right about the LIFT and FCU, and this is same as what @ACE OF THE AIR earlier said..