Pakistan has 10,159 tcf of shale gas deposits: USAID

[Viper0011.]

translate it into English pleajjjj

HAHA, that please was funny and tied directly to the post above

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Seen news of some tonnes of billion of coal. What happened now to that coal project

Government is working on extracting it; its included in the CPEC project.

200% right. But, you are wasting your time. These guys, even with hundreds of billions we've poured into Pakistan within the past 60 years, still don't trust us and probably won't either. Its just how the thought process has been built for decades.

Every single incompetent dictator and civilian, who couldn't explain why they didn't do jack squat for the people of Pakistan, blamed their incompetency onto the US and somehow, people bought into it, instead of seeing facts.

If you ask these people today, they still think the US is behind everything that happens in Pakistan, from terrorism to a local thief stealing a woman's purse!!!! And the funny thing is, you are right. The US (and then Canada), are the two countries using Shale Gas technology at a scale Pakistan would need. So to tap into these O&G resources, the US is the biggest help, and then, the purchaser too. But oh no, God forbid if Pakistanis start to see this clearly. There have to be some conspiracy theories involved from the US's side, is how they believe in everything!!

You have poured billions of dollars not "hundreds of billions"; we've lost WAAAY more then we have received. USA has given Pakistan a total of 10-16 billion dollars in aid since Pakistan's creation; we've lost up to 70 billion dollars alone since "war on terrorism" began; not to mention tens of thousands of lives lost and hundreds of thousands of refugees.

 

[Viper0011.]

You see viper there is a saying "It takes two hands to clap" yes you poured in a lot of money into Pakistan there is no doubt in it but you tell me honestly do you really think that your leaders gave that money to honest ppl in Pakistan? or you gave that money because your leaders really cared for Pakistani ppl? no you gave us that money because your leaders knew they need us truth is you always have used us be it Afghan-Soviet war or your so called WOT. So plz don't act like that you gave that money in some kind of charity. You see there are some solid reasons as to why there is so much hatred against america in Pakistanis. Well not only Pakistanis but now many other countries hates you.

You have to use common sense to find your answers from the questions posted in the post above. Think about it, what does the money do, when sent or obtained in large quantities (like the billions we are talking about on here),.... *IF* used correctly?

The money is used to create opportunity for the entire country. Let's link it to a real life scenario, how has the $ 46 billion Chinese investment impacted Pakistan in the past 12 months? The ENTIRE country's future outlook has changed and progressed globally since the announcement. The positive effects of the future of Pakistan can be seen all the way to NYC's stock market (Bloomberg's ratings, Moodies ratings, NASDAQ introducing Pakistani mutual funds, creation of the symbol "PAK", which is trading at over $ 14 dollars right now, and has the potential to grow to potentially 10 times more). Why is all that?

Because the Chinese funding is being used for the right purposes and the people running the show (NS's team), want the country to actually grow and be prosperous.

Similarly, when the US was providing billions, don't expect the US President or Sec. of State or the Senators to come to Pakistan and hand the check to ordinary Pakistanis. That's really a crazy idea if you think about it, and has NO relevance to the reality.

The money was provided to create the opportunity in Pakistan by then "rulers". Majority of the Military generals didn't use it correctly because they don't know how to work a business or an economy. They are trained to fight, not raise funds, do sales and return a profit.

A professional boxer can't treat a patient with appendicitis. You need doctors for it. If you sent a medical patient to a boxer, the boxer would want to punch in frustration, or put him through the same "rigorous training" thinking that would fix the disease due to healthy extreme activity that's healthy for the human body, because that's all he knows. But in Appendicitis, it can burst with a lot of physical activity, and can kill the patient!! So that is what happened with the billions the US sent. The military rulers, used it for other purposes, then for public welfare.

So, the blame for providing money, but not giving it to each individual Pakistani is flat out silly and makes no sense.

The government of Pakistan, at all these times, was responsible for using that money appropriately, and responsibly (like its happening right now). I have a lot of respect for the Pak military and specially RS, as I personally know him.

But at the same time, I want to be truthful to the situation and blame the right party. The military of Pakistan, after 1,2 or 3 military rules, needed to realize that they are not JUST the ONLY loyal Pakistanis on the planet. And that they can't grow the country. So as a symbol of maturity and respect for the country, they needed to allow for a civilian system to run, like 4 or 5 decades ago. Now that there is one system in place, its getting more mature by the day and its taking Pakistan to the next level globally.

Now going forward, the US and Pakistani relationships are almost at the level of "pre-Pressler" times. Many on here hate NS for various reasons (nothing practical though, some due to IK, many due to the fact he wants a check on the military in terms of enforcing civilian rule, and whether you like it or not, as Pakistan progresses, that will happen, may be not day, but in a couple of more terms, its just the way nature works once you start becoming democratic).

But, in reality, NS is doing his job nicely, think about the global power map. From China on one side, to Russia on another, to France, UK, and to the US all the way, NS's government has gained a LOT of foreign ground in Pakistan's favor.

Who would've thought in their lifetime that Russia will actually sell offensive weapons to Pakistan. Which, in a war, will be directly used against India!!!! Today, its happening. NS and RS, both had good trips to the US recently, and the American public are starting to see a real country called Pakistan, not a war torn, terrorists heaven piece of land (as many believed just a couple of years ago).

So the point is, that the large sum of money, the relationships building, and the negotiating power wasn't there before. Due to which, the country didn't move forward. Now, all these are in place, the money is being put into real projects, which, as they complete, will help the country go forward. Also, when I say "NS", its not a political post in his favor. I'd be saying IK, if IK was the current elected official doing all these things. So "NS" = Current democratically elected Premier of Pakistan. Not my personal preference, hell, I don't even live in Pakistan, let alone vote or have interest in your politics. But I try to write the truth about situations in Pakistan.

Pakistan wasn't built by military rulers, or through a Marshal law. It was built after millions sacrificed their lives to HAVE a home country. So when civilians built it, why not let the SAME civilians run it? Those civilians / people are the REAL owner of the country and the power. And the People should hold anyone in power accountable, the Military should do her job in protecting the country. A Boxer needs to remain a Boxer, and a Doctor needs to treat an ailing country. Results will grow Pakistan as a society and as a peaceful economic power. If these things had happened 5 decades ago, you may be at, or above the same level as South Korea economically and financially.

You have poured billions of dollars not "hundreds of billions"; we've lost WAAAY more then we have received. USA has given Pakistan a total of 10-16 billion dollars in aid since Pakistan's creation; we've lost up to 70 billion dollars alone since "war on terrorism" began; not to mention tens of thousands of lives lost and hundreds of thousands of refugees.

RIIIGHT!!! Try counting from 60 years ago....you'd end up in "hundreds" of billions over 6 decades!!!! Number don't lie. But like children say to their teacher "sorry teacher, I don't have homework to show, the Dog ate my homework", here, the Dog ate the billions sent to Pakistan to help the common people over the past 6 decades!!

 

[The Sandman]

but not giving it to each individual Pakistani is flat out silly and makes no sense.

I never said that read my post again you said that "we" don't trust you and you have poured in hundred's of billions into Pakistan. All i am saying is that you never gave that money to an honest leader/People in Pakistan and yes this is also a bitter truth that we never had any honest leader be it a Dictator or a Civilian leader except Quaid-e-Azam he was a true leader. So the point is u gave that money for your own work like you gave us money in Soviet-Afghan war. as @Talwar e Pakistan said we lost more money than you gave us not only money but men also. Anyway i think we shouldn't go forward as it will be counted as Derailing the thread

 

[Viper0011.]

I never said that read my post again you said that "we" don't trust you and you have poured in hundred's of billions into Pakistan. All i am saying is that you never gave that money to an honest leader/People in Pakistan and yes this is also a bitter truth that we never had any honest leader be it a Dictator or a Civilian leader except Quaid-e-Azam he was a true leader. So the point is u gave that money for your own work like you gave us money in Soviet-Afghan war. as @Talwar e Pakistan said we lost more money than you gave us not only money but men also. Anyway i think we shouldn't go forward as it will be counted as Derailing the thread

Again, passing the blame back to the US in the second paragraph, when you clearly identified the real problem. The problem is, you didn't have people in power, who knew how to create VALUE and OPPORTUNITY from the money the US was providing. That's the real issue and the end of this argument.

I have the money, whether someone gave it to me as a payment or grant. If I don't create value by it, its my problem. Not the country giving it. So the problem is inside your leaders at those times. They didn't think the people of Pakistan were worth creating the opportunity for. How is that America's fault??? And why should the US be "checking" to see who's how loyal to Pakistan??? Common man, you are making statements that make NO sense.

Also, since WOT, a big part of the money is the services actually. But there were additional billion given, and before the WOT, in the past 50 years, the US even gave aid to Pakistan when the government didn't have money to pay salaries.......!! So PLEASE, remember the main issue, the money and the American cooperation has always been there. But the generals ruling Pakistan, would like to make embargoed F-16's a MUCH bigger issue than telling the people where the billions went all these decades, which could've turned Pakistan into a South Korea, economically, had that money been spent on growing the economy of Pakistan, and creating opportunity for Pakistan. You can't pass the responsibility back to US on the failures of internal Pakistani mismanagement.

Once the money gets to Pakistan's bank account, it becomes its government's responsibility to either distribute it within the "buddies", or create opportunity for people. The US has done her job as a friend and as a partner in providing the money. If you don't understand how to create Value out of the money, how is it the US's fault? Plus, even then, the US STILL went ahead and appointed US Aid in Pakistan, so to make sure the money goes DIRECTLY to projects. The US didn't have to do that as Pakistani leaders needed to show loyalty and trust towards their country!!

But the good thing is, now the money is being put into the right projects, so Pakistan has started to grow and become a much better and stronger economy and a peaceful society.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

translate it into English pleajjjj

Feeling Good. Mirrors my thoughts when someone posts in coloquial Hindi which I was unable to comprehend

Well I meant was, politicians have been claiming to complete Thar Coal project since ages, converting it into Petrol, fuel etc and since fooling Pakistani public in general.

 

[Nilgiri]

Again, passing the blame back to the US in the second paragraph, when you clearly identified the real problem. The problem is, you didn't have people in power, who knew how to create VALUE and OPPORTUNITY from the money the US was providing. That's the real issue and the end of this argument.

The Cold war was quite a vicious time. Maybe 1 out of 10 countries in the developing world were able to properly harness foreign aid in some meaningful way....and most of the time they had foreign help to provide a security apparatus (notably Japan, South Korea etc...)

Most countries were just hell bent on direct spending of two things: security and grand status projects. They ignored human resource development to their detriment.

One cannot blame either side (provider, receiver) fully, because both are somewhat culpable. The US for example could have directly imposed conditions on the aid spending or better yet provide the aid in a format directly to ensure this (instead of providing money). The US by the 60s already knew quite well that the money was mostly being squandered in most countries it was "helping"....but it continued the provision for various political reasons.

I am not blaming only the US here of course, the same was true with the West and USSR as well....the "donors" if you will.

All this being said, hindsight is 20/20.....we cannot properly judge the situation as it existed in the cold war (countries freshly coming out of colonialism/civil war/world wars and two massively powerful political entities seeking global domination and control via any means necessary (except total annihilation thankfully).

So thats why there are valid points with both your arguments.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Within 10-15 years, renewables will be far for economically viable than fossil fuels.

 

[Nilgiri]

Within 10-15 years, renewables will be far for economically viable than fossil fuels.

Depends on the pace of battery development and new charging/discharging tech. It is not a guaranteed result and we must hedge with clean coal and nuclear...among other things.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Depends on the pace of battery development and new charging/discharging tech. It is not a guaranteed result and we must hedge with clean coal and nuclear...among other things.

Given that a major chunk of the fuel goes into powering households and industries, the disadvantage of battery can be nullified by connected smart grids. And rather than battery, super capacitors is the way to be.

 

[Viper0011.]

The Cold war was quite a vicious time. Maybe 1 out of 10 countries in the developing world were able to properly harness foreign aid in some meaningful way....and most of the time they had foreign help to provide a security apparatus (notably Japan, South Korea etc...)

Most countries were just hell bent on direct spending of two things: security and grand status projects. They ignored human resource development to their detriment.

One cannot blame either side (provider, receiver) fully, because both are somewhat culpable. The US for example could have directly imposed conditions on the aid spending or better yet provide the aid in a format directly to ensure this (instead of providing money). The US by the 60s already knew quite well that the money was mostly being squandered in most countries it was "helping"....but it continued the provision for various political reasons.

I am not blaming only the US here of course, the same was true with the West and USSR as well....the "donors" if you will..

I find your post rather entertaining. Post WII, the Europeans managed a destroyed continent and revised it back to an economic and political power house, the Japanese did that, the Chinese did the same. During and post Cold War, the Koreans saw tremendous growth, the Malaysians, the Indonesians were very stable. In the middle of the Cold War, and the constant pressure to go war between the Isrealis and Arabs, both sides, Israelis, KSA, UAE, Iran, etc, saw great economic progress.

So here, when a country gets billions (the SAME country who's economists had provided economic growth plans to KSA and South Korea), but failed to achieve marginal growth compared to these two, is because of the leadership. We can blame the world and the Galaxy, but the reality doesn't change. Now, today, turn the clock, Pakistan was in the worst condition from a terrorism, internal stability,etc, till just three years ago. Now you have a leadership that's working to the majority of the degree in terms of making economic and political stability related progress.........the results are obvious, even when there have been serious terrorist attacks, the country continued to male rapid progress started 2013!!

 

[Nilgiri]

Post WII, the Europeans managed a destroyed continent and revised it back to an economic and political power house, the Japanese did that, the Chinese did the same.

Europe and Japan certainly went through phases 1, 2 and 3. China was stuck in phase 1 and 2 for a long time because of various reasons. They had a lower GDP per capita and lower growth rate than Pakistan (and even India) till the 70s - early 80s.

During and post Cold War, the Koreans saw tremendous growth, the Malaysians, the Indonesians were very stable.

Like I said Koreas security was guaranteed by foreign powers. The North by the USSR and the South by the US. This especially left the South with large margins they could invest in developing human capital which is always the best long term bet. The North reeled under the worse economic system eventually, but did achieve good human development at least.

Malaysia and Indonesia did ok on average. Not great, not terrible. Suharto was a pragmatist. A crooked corrupt guy underneath, but a pragmatist. He made sure the corrupt system delivered....and again investment in human capital was much better than in South Asia (though no where good as say Korea). Its somewhat similar to the development models and levels achieved in South India.

In the middle of the Cold War, and the constant pressure to go war between the Isrealis and Arabs, both sides, Israelis, KSA, UAE, Iran, etc, saw great economic progress.

Israel already had a developed human resource to go (they got tons of it from the European and American Jews who migrated there to form the country). No to mention the huge amounts of aid PER capita they received from the US and west. The rest had the resource wealth (oil + gas) to "bludgeon" themselves into high per capita terms. An extreme example of the latter would be Nauru, if you have ever come across their story.

In any case, none of these are transferable to Pakistan which, like India, suffered from appalling human capital to being with in 1947 and then squandered one whole generation of development by not focusing on that like say South Korea.

Anyways I am not dismisssing what you are saying. Just saying its not a black and white blame game like you are portraying. There are real reasons as to why the aid from the US was squandered in hindsight....but also why the US didn't hold country's leaders feet to the fire when they definitely could have. It was simply the environment of the cold war.

Those countries that had good human capital resources to begin or high resources per capita could develop quite fast in per capita output terms at least.

Those countries (like south korea) that developed and cultivated human resources could later rely on them in the same way.

But most countries in the cold war squandered that potential immensely on account of them not realising where the long term development priorities were....and instead got caught up in arming themselves or spending on relatively short term status projects....and the superpowers simply didn't care enough to correct this behaviour....because aid to them was simply for political objectives mostly and an added "feel good" factor to boot. I mean look at the number of times the US and USSR switched support to the various factions in the horn of africa during the cold war. Like one Russian commentator said...."Nowadays, everyone has forgotten who we exactly supported at what time". It was a game to them. That attitude definitely carried over somewhat to development aid too. Don't fool yourself.

 

[karakoram]

Feeling Good. Mirrors my thoughts when someone posts in coloquial Hindi which I was unable to comprehend

Well I meant was, politicians have been claiming to complete Thar Coal project since ages, converting it into Petrol, fuel etc and since fooling Pakistani public in general.

corruption is the main factor mate but now this government is quite committed to overcome the energy crisis and many more issues.

 

[Clutch]

please note there is a difference between shale oil and tight oil which the U.S is producing by fracking

shale oil is in the trillions of barrels, but is not economically viable to process into usable oil just yet.on a large scale.

Sorry Dude but you are wrong...

Technically shale oil is tight oil. It's just that is tighter than say reservoir rock with mico-Darcy permeability.

Here is the run down... miliDarcy (greater than 1-2) you can now consider conventional reservoir rock. Then you have MicroDarcy reservoir rock... some shales can fall under this catagory. Then there is the insanely tight rock in the NanoDarcy ... this is what conventional wisdom even 5 years ago termed as caprock (definitely not a reservoir rock) which these shales fall under...

For the uninitiated: milli is x10^-3 Micro is x10^-6 Nano is x10^-9

Furthermore... the shales we are talking about (in Pakistan's case) that rock would like like your kitchen granite counter top. We can now with horizontal multistaged fraced well extract hydrocarbons from such a rock. The Milidarcy rock would look and feel like your concrete driveway rock with its imperfections but still pretty "smooth" (for the lack of a better word).

I think you read the word Provable and got confused. Put it this way, thats just lingo for reserves estimates.

Within 10-15 years, renewables will be far for economically viable than fossil fuels.

too short a time frame.... alternatives will be more viable in approx 25-40 years.

 

[niaz]

As a Pakistani who is crazy enough to feel frustrated about Pakistan being left behind economically, over the years I have often pondered upon the reasons; why Pakistan’s GDP growth of about 6% per annum, petered out to 1.5% after 1970?

Best explanation is probably given by the eminent economist & ex-Governor of Sate Bank of Pakistan, Dr Ishrat Hussein,

Quote

The main explanatory factor for this reversal is the paradigm shift in the basic model of development brought about by Mr. Z.A Bhutto soon after assuming power in 1971. His regime nationalized all the major manufacturing industries, banking, insurance, education etc. and caused a major disruption to economy and an erosion of private investor confidence that persisted for the next 20 years. This experiment with socialism had a negative impact on industrial development, export expansion, the quality of education and gave an overarching role to the bureaucracy in economic decision making. The substitution of a culture of entrepreneurship, risk taking and innovation by rent seeking and patronage suppressed the private sector dynamism. The emergence of bureaucrats as business leaders reinforced the new culture. Bureaucratic harassment, problems of law and order, unreliable and expensive power and inadequate infrastructure also discouraged investment and help explain why the private sector was reluctant to make long-term commitments. The disintegration of the unified economy of East and West Pakistan and the resultant formation of Bangladesh as an independent country served from Pakistan also caused tremors in this period.

Unquote.

http://ishrathusain.iba.edu.pk/speeches/Pakistan_s_Growth_Experience_1947-2007.pdf


In my personal opinion, it was a combination of many fcators;1965 adventure & the disasterous 1971 war among others. Following 1979 soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan experienced good growth but its long term effect was disastrous. Fighting USA’s proxy war led to the growing influence of the Salafis & the Wahhabis, giving rise to extremism & intolerance in the society.

As of now, significant section of Pakistani population, that includes main stream political leaders such as Taliban Khan & some member of the PML-N, carry soft spot for the extremists. Most of the Islamists, for example the PTI ally Jamaat Islami, hold the view that since this world is only temporary one should prefer to live on “Dates” and go to the eternal heaven instead of following path of moderation and economic growth. Naturally stress is on the superficial, such as length of the trousers & the beard; unlike early Muslims who were after well -being in this life as well in the next.

These unstable conditions have resulted in massive capital outflow with wealthy Pakistanis investing in Dubai & abroad rather than in Pakistan. The other factor being the rise of the corrupt politicians to power in the name of democracy.

There cannot be smoke without the fire, there is a reason why Zardari is known as Mr 10%. On the other hand Nawaz Sharifs’family had only Ittifaq Foundry as late as the early 1980’s. How come his is now one of the richest political families in Pakistan? St Jerome declared 2 thousands years ago that a rich man is either a thief or son of thief. However, it is not the corrupt politicians only who are to blame, naive & gullible Joe public who elects them is equally culpable.

For example, last municipal election were held under Musharraf in 2005. Champions of democracy, the PPP & the PMLN, abolished local bodies as soon as they came to power in 2008.

Current elections are being held after extreme pressure from the Supreme Court but it has been ensured that the new councils will not have control over the funds. Thus development funds will be spent on motor ways & Metros but not not education, health or on the provision of potable water. Nevertheless, the same faces keep getting re-elected to power time & again.

It does not look likely that Pakistan’s fortunes are going to change any time soon. However one must always hope for the best.