Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Shane]

Otherwise---when there were F16's / M2k / Rafale were available and a monster of an enemy next door---there was no place for the JF17 to fit into the picture at that time.

Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.

Best case realistic scenario:
A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.

Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.

Yeah, you have it. And you are under threat from both Afghanistan and India. Mr. Trump just said clearly there is a possibility of conflict between India/Pakistan and they will make sure nuclear weapons are not used 'anywhere in the world'.

Flabbergasted is the word.

By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.

 

[ziaulislam]

Going to UN, and clearly stating we have done our job and we consider America a bully, and a hegemon hell bent upon wrecking havoc, creating dissent and conflict, in pursuit of its imperialistic aims will get you a lot of respect.

govt simply needs to say no to some thing like drones, open media accusation against Pakistan, USA is not happy with many of her allies but they dont do open accusations (until trump) because they would see a strong response(even if that country is small and has no oil) the only excpetion here is Pakistan for some odd reasons

a strong stance will not change for the bad for Pakistan but traditional political parties will not take a stand as they dont want to weaken their position with USA, all of them purely want USA backing
while the people will not entertain new faces in politics, ultimately the fault lies in educated urban middle class of Pakistan for supporting such a poor leadership
with exception to educated urban areas of KPK, may be islamabad, there is no awareness for change, this doesn't relates to PTI, KPK urban areas have always voted for different peoples and new faces

remember how BB and nawaz would talk when they were in exile

 

[Avicenna]

Yeah, you have it. And you are under threat from both Afghanistan and India. Mr. Trump just said clearly there is a possibility of conflict between India/Pakistan and they will make sure nuclear weapons are not used 'anywhere in the world'.



Until and unless you stand up to them, you won't get any. Saying "We wish to be recognized for sacrifices..." won't get respect. Going to UN, and clearly stating we have done our job and we consider America a bully, and a hegemon hell bent upon wrecking havoc, creating dissent and conflict, in pursuit of its imperialistic aims will get you a lot of respect.

Going to the UN and calling the US a bully isnt going to get you any respect. Its gonna get you bombed.

 

[Chak Bamu]

If I was in power---I would have spent 5 billion for the Rafales beg borrow or steal---any which way---.

I am glad you never got anywhere close to being in power (actually you could never since you obviously lack the necessary skills).

There was going to be a peace deal with India, and we were on our way to doing that without Rafales. But as we all know Kargil happened. Rafales or no Rafales, it was Kargil misadventure that killed chances of any peace deal with India. Had peace deals been contingent upon marginal improvements in weaponry, we would not have seen so many wars in 20th century. Your logic is specious beyond belief, and no amount of convincing can get you off your high horse of Rafale bringing peace to Sough Asia. There is such a thing in this world as Game Theory and I doubt Indians are ignorant of it. In fact they have played beautifully and we have ended up with cynics like yourself who fervently believe in the power of weapons over development.

Does it ever occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant less expenditure on education? Does it every occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant more Madrassahs? Does it ever occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant worsened socio-economic situation in Pakistan beyond what actually had happened in 90s? On top of it, you ignore what India might have done in response - because you never question your assumption that Rafale would bring peace. It is this sort of tiresome repetition and bickering from you that is nauseating. You are incapable of thinking straight and keep up with parochial & cynical slogans that senior posters find so distasteful.

Youngman,

Read up on history----none of Chengiz Khan's generals were soldiers---they were sheep and horse herders---.

They had no military training---yet they smashed thru the largest armies of the world.

Golda Meir was no soldier---yet she signed for the most expensive arms deal of its time.

I do not know what history you read. But clearly, you forgot to read the parts where Chengiz Khan & his aides mounted many campaigns inside Mongolia. Mongols had lived with continuous warfare, raiding tribes and picking off cattle and women as and when they could. They bred hardy horses and thus had an absolute advantage in mobility. So, they had an understanding of Logistics, Mobility, & Alliance-building. This is how generals are made

China could not have been conquered without a deep understanding of logistics, own relative strength, & appreciation of human weaknesses. None of their other conquests could have happened if they did not have top-notch generalship honed over the years. You can not argue against success. But your train of thought does not care how many stations it passes in ignorance.

Show me ONE weapon system that Mongols had that others did not? You would not find anything akin to your pretty Rafale. Now China did have plenty of advantages, and they had plenty of resources. They could and did afford plenty of 'Rafales' of their day (Wall of China, anyone?), but it all failed. Weapons by themselves do not guarantee success.

You make much of PAF being a failure. I would much rather prefer that they fail with fewer money and resources, than with more money an resources.

The examples you give are laughable indeed. You want to find us Rafales from the example of Mongols? About Golda Meir - well she was assured of a lot of support from USA government and Zionist groups. She had a highly educated and motivated population. She knew that her country would pull through. Now contrast with Pakistan..... You just can not do that, can you? Already Pakistan is bleeding from so many cuts inflicted by own assets and institutions. Our security-mindset has really really cost us our socio-economic development. This is our Achilles' heel, and you purposely advocate that we should make it worse.

F-16s or schools is a hard choice. You want us to have compounded it by choosing between Rafales and State. That is pretty idiotic, only if you can open your eyes to see it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.

Best case realistic scenario:
A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.

Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.



Flabbergasted is the word.

By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.

Hi,

You hit a part of the nail on the head----. If somehow or the other Paf had gotten 50 F16's right after 9/11---or 30 + Rafales---the wind would have fallen out the sales of the enemy---.

They were done and dusted---with the Rafale---you would have taken possesion of the most superior aircraft available---or with 50+ F16's---you would have had a massive force multiplier. That is what the enemy was scared of and not the JF17---getting someone scared is like winning half the battle---fearful people make a lots of mistakes---.

But when the earthquake happened and the Paf donated the money to the earthquake---and the Paf out of usual sheer stupidity made a public announcement about donating the money to the relief fund.

Where the fck is the deceit and deception in military hardware procurement---where the fck is the guessing game---.

That is why I call these Paf generals traitors of pakistan---they openly told the enemy that we were broke---we did not have the money---we gave the money away---J10 is an inferior aircraft---the chinese awacs are inferior---we did not buy early enough because we assessed that the peace deal with india was a done deal there is no ending to the deception of the Paf against Pakistan.

 

[Raider 21]

Youngman,

These things I talk about---they are beyond you at this time---please don't bother to indulge---.



Hi,

You hit a part of the nail on the head----. If somehow or the other Paf had gotten 50 F16's right after 9/11---or 30 + Rafales---the wind would have fallen out the sales of the enemy---.

They were done and dusted---with the Rafale---you would have taken possesion of the most superior aircraft available---or with 50+ F16's---you would have had a massive force multiplier. That is what the enemy was scared of and not the JF17---getting someone scared is like winning half the battle---fearful people make a lots of mistakes---.

But when the earthquake happened and the Paf donated the money to the earthquake---and the Paf out of usual sheer stupidity made a public announcement about donating the money to the relief fund.

Where the fck is the deceit and deception in military hardware procurement---where the fck is the guessing game---.

That is why I call these Paf generals traitors of pakistan---they openly told the enemy that we were broke---we did not have the money---we gave the money away---J10 is an inferior aircraft---the chinese awacs are inferior---we did not buy early enough because we assessed that the peace deal with india was a done deal there is no ending to the deception of the Paf against Pakistan.

@Chak Bamu you are not that upto date youngman---this supposed peace deal that the Paf was jumping at---was around 2004-05---Kargil incidence happened years ago---Rafale was not offered in the late 90's but the early 2000's---.

The mongol composite bow and the mongol pony---plus spare ponies for each rider---roughly about 80 arrows per archer. The mongol bow could out distance the opponents bow---the mongol archer shot from the back of the horse---.

Glad did they did that for those of us who were stuck.....sincerely grateful.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Youngman,

These things I talk about---they are beyond you at this time---please don't bother to indulge---.


@Chak Bamu you are not that upto date youngman---this supposed peace deal that the Paf was jumping at---was around 2004-05---Kargil incidence happened years ago---Rafale was not offered in the late 90's but the early 2000's---.

The mongol composite bow and the mongol pony---plus spare ponies for each rider---roughly about 80 arrows per archer. The mongol bow could out distance the opponents bow---the mongol archer shot from the back of the horse---.

Don't 'young man' me you crank. I dye my hair.

You bring irrelevant stuff from all over. Sometimes it is M2K, then it is Rafale, tomorrow it might be F-35 or something. You are fixated on weapons, when that actually should be the least of Pakistan's worries. Your theme is always the same - "PAF is traitor", "PAF is stupid", "PAF has lost it", etc... The only one who has actually lost it is you yourself. It is beyond belief that anyone can argue that a weapon system can be a vehicle for imposing peace upon a neighbor that is 10x the size of Pakistan's economy. If there could be such a weapon, then nuclear armament is it and we already have that.

Parthian shots, ponies, and composite bow do not win battles in themselves. It was generalship and understanding of human weaknesses. None of the above could scale the Great Wall of China. It was bribery that worked.

I may have finally learned to appreciate the comic value of your posts. I think I would rather enjoy them.

Aside from above, today's developments prove the value & wisdom inherent in opting for JF-17. More F-16s were simply more trouble. It might take a few months to ride out the rough patch. I hope PAF finally gets over its romance with F-16. Bring on the J10...

Ain't you not very intelligent for a 47 years old---.

Double negative, especially use of Ain't (short for "is not") confirms sub-100 IQ level.

Glad did they did that for those of us who were stuck.....sincerely grateful.

I am willing to bet that he would not get it. He simply does not have enough neurons, or size of heart to realize that.

 

[araz]

Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.

Best case realistic scenario:
A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.

Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.



Flabbergasted is the word.

By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.

Could not agree more. A very factual analysis. . Keep up the good work.( I meant to say young man but given people's sensitivities to the term can I still say not so young man???)

 

[araz]

govt simply needs to say no to some thing like drones, open media accusation against Pakistan, USA is not happy with many of her allies but they dont do open accusations (until trump) because they would see a strong response(even if that country is small and has no oil) the only excpetion here is Pakistan for some odd reasons

a strong stance will not change for the bad for Pakistan but traditional political parties will not take a stand as they dont want to weaken their position with USA, all of them purely want USA backing
while the people will not entertain new faces in politics, ultimately the fault lies in educated urban middle class of Pakistan for supporting such a poor leadership
with exception to educated urban areas of KPK, may be islamabad, there is no awareness for change, this doesn't relates to PTI, KPK urban areas have always voted for different peoples and new faces

remember how BB and nawaz would talk when they were in exile

May I ask how you say No to something which you want to the job for you and which flies with your total and utter (most times) agreement.
The bhookas and nangas of this world(I refer to all conotations of it, ie, morally, socially,Ideologically and financially decrepid ones)do not have a stance especially since their masters decides who stands and who falls in the power corridors(perhaps you have forgotten Benazir v/s Zardari, much as I detested them both or did you think it was just an event !!!). Our intellectual depravity is the reason why we are in such a predicament and why every Choora Chamaar is dictating to us. Because a nation which proudly announces that its appeal for loan from the IMF has been successful needs to go down the same pee hole which we are in.
We are again making the same mistake in elevating another human being to the status of a demigod and let me predict that he will agian disappoint you.
We need systems and processes which are not enslaved to any institution or person and downright honesty on an individual and national level before we can progress.This effectively means that a Sabzi walla when he hides rotten veg underneath good veg and cheats you by weighing less than what you have paid for is equally at fault as a corrupt Secretariat official who takes a female teacher home for a session of a 2 on one sandwich just so she can get a job in her favourite school and the teacher who goes with that Bastard as well as the leader who abducts the children of his potential targets to wrestle a house out of them which he likes but the person does not want to sell.. And I am relating things which I saw and heard from my own eyes and ears in the 90s when I was in Pakistan. I am told things are far worse. this is why we are in a mess not some firangi red faced idiot who dictates to us.

 

[ziaulislam]

At fault here is our racial alliances and supporting political parties based upon that. The problem is mainly in educated urban middle class

 

[Shane]

Could not agree more. A very factual analysis. . Keep up the good work.( I meant to say young man but given people's sensitivities to the term can I still say not so young man???)

I am actually 41 years young so wouldn't mind it at all. Made my day.
Thank you.

 

[ziaulislam]

PML N will thus have punjab,ppp sindh and MQM karachi

 

[CriticalThought]

May I ask how you say No to something which you want to the job for you and which flies with your total and utter (most times) agreement.
The bhookas and nangas of this world(I refer to all conotations of it, ie, morally, socially,Ideologically and financially decrepid ones)do not have a stance especially since their masters decides who stands and who falls in the power corridors(perhaps you have forgotten Benazir v/s Zardari, much as I detested them both or did you think it was just an event !!!). Our intellectual depravity is the reason why we are in such a predicament and why every Choora Chamaar is dictating to us. Because a nation which proudly announces that its appeal for loan from the IMF has been successful needs to go down the same pee hole which we are in.
We are again making the same mistake in elevating another human being to the status of a demigod and let me predict that he will agian disappoint you.
We need systems and processes which are not enslaved to any institution or person and downright honesty on an individual and national level before we can progress.This effectively means that a Sabzi walla when he hides rotten veg underneath good veg and cheats you by weighing less than what you have paid for is equally at fault as a corrupt Secretariat official who takes a female teacher home for a session of a 2 on one sandwich just so she can get a job in her favourite school and the teacher who goes with that Bastard as well as the leader who abducts the children of his potential targets to wrestle a house out of them which he likes but the person does not want to sell.. And I am relating things which I saw and heard from my own eyes and ears in the 90s when I was in Pakistan. I am told things are far worse. this is why we are in a mess not some firangi red faced idiot who dictates to us.

Corruption, brutality, dishonour is everywhere. No country is a country of angels. What's different with Pakistan is our entire ruling class is imported. And hence our policies are made to fit foreign interests. And the common people have been beaten into complacency and submission through both poverty and lawlessness. The common poor man in Pakistan does not believe he is living in a safe environment. He thinks trying to change the status quo will only lead to misery for him and his family. And thus, the circus continues.

 

[ziaulislam]

Corruption, brutality, dishonour is everywhere. No country is a country of angels. What's different with Pakistan is our entire ruling class is imported. And hence our policies are made to fit foreign interests. And the common people have been beaten into complacency and submission through both poverty and lawlessness. The common poor man in Pakistan does not believe he is living in a safe environment. He thinks trying to change the status quo will only lead to misery for him and his family. And thus, the circus continues.

Difference is that huge majority of our educated class people here in this forum will vote for those people especially in punjab, sindh and will than go along and complain as well
There are decent leaders in every party but they know that they cant do anything without the popular vote of bhutto and nawaz.

 

[ziaulislam]

I remeber my class mate highly educated doctors voting for zardari because all of sudeen BB was a hero