Pakistan Day: Freeing the Colonized Minds of the Elites

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan should

Baybers honestly I think most Turks don't understand South Asia. I say this not in a bad way. Turkish trajectory, history and conciousness is more similar to the West and then South Asia or Arabs/Persians etc.

GDP would not have remained the highest in the world.

How do we know this? Curious?

Just for the record elites in these [below] countries have indeed been colonized with Western mind.

* China
* Japan
* South Korea
* Singapore
* Turkey
* Lebanon
* Azerbaijhan
* Kazakstan

 

[RiazHaq]

Baybers honestly I think most Turks don't understand South Asia. I say this not in a bad way. Turkish trajectory, history and conciousness is more similar to the West and then South Asia or Arabs/Persians etc.

How do we know this? Curious?

Just for the record elites in these [below] countries have indeed been colonized with Western mind.

* China
* Japan
* South Korea
* Singapore
* Turkey
* Lebanon
* Azerbaijhan
* Kazakstan

With the possible exception of Singapore, they all use their own languages for educational instructions and they have their own curriculums. In Pakistan, the elite schools that produce the nation's leaders are all English medium schools and many follow Cambridge curriculum for O level and A level education. They even use history books by English authors like Nigel Kelly.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

With the possible exception of Singapore, they all use their own languages for educational instructions

That is natural consequence of being homogenous, generic ethnic states or where the state is spun around the core of one ethnic group. Pakistan is not that. For a start what Pakistan's "own" language? Urdu as you know is emphatically not the mother tongue of 90% of the population. So "own" might carry currency if Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi or Balochi were declared provincial languages and as the primary modes of communication.

Because of the complications English has been dominant much as in Singapore which again as you know is multi-ethnic entity. However overlooking the language the countries I have listed are as Western as can be other than dragging them to the West or doing correction surgery for the epicanthic folds. although even there South Korea and Japan have industry dedicated to making them look Western. I think you would agree that having English as language is far less intrusive then having surgery to look Western.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/19/korea.beauty/index.html

 

[RiazHaq]

That is natural consequence of being homogenous, generic ethnic states or where the state is spun around the core of one ethnic group. Pakistan is not that. For a start what Pakistan's "own" language? Urdu as you know is emphatically not the mother tongue of 90% of the population. So "own" might carry currency if Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi or Balochi were declared provincial languages and as the primary modes of communication.

Because of the complications English has been dominant much as in Singapore which again as you know is multi-ethnic entity. However overlooking the language the countries I have listed are as Western as can be other than dragging them to the West or doing correction surgery for the epicanthic folds. although even there South Korea and Japan have industry dedicated to making them look Western. I think you would agree that having English as language is far less intrusive then having surgery to look Western.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/19/korea.beauty/index.html

Vast majority of Pakistanis have accepted Urdu as their own language. It's widely understood and spoken across the width and breadth of Pakistan helping with national integration. National media and entertainment have played a huge role in it.

I wouldn't compare Urdu with English or any other language as far as Pakistan is concerned.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@RiazHaq


https://www.dawn.com/news/1351088/seven-decades-on


Seven decades on
Irfan HusainUpdated August 12, 2017

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Vast majority of Pakistanis have accepted Urdu as their own language.

The issue is not about acceptance. Many have accepted English also by your own admission. The fact is Urdu is not a mother tongue of majority. 70 years of Urdu/English being peddled by the elites is going to impact the people but the fact is both were "alien" to the majority. Mother tongue within the referance you made to Turks, Japanese, Koreans means exactly that, mother tonque. Not a language from another region which has been transpanted by elites. I find it amusing and I say this will due respect how peope conflate Urdu with "mother tonque". It is not akin to Korean in South Korea, or Turkish in Turkey, or Arabic in Saudia.

I don't need to remind you about the Bengali language riots which preceded the 1972 events. While I accept after 70 years of state sonsorship Urdu has gained currency [like English in some quarters] but please don't conflate that with being mother tongue. It still is not to huge number of people.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@RiazHaq

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/pakistan-at-70/

Pakistan at 70

 

[Indus Pakistan]

As regards the thrust of your argumant I will say it again. Most of the Pak elite act like and behave like the Moghul and other royal houses of the east. As despotic, dynastic, elitest, utter contempt for the ordinary man, misrule, corruption, gluttony etc etc.

This was the exact reason the much touted Moghul Empire came crashing down and a sub-continent that had 20% of humanity was taken over by few Gora Sahibs from a tiny speck of a island from other side of the world. they managed to do that precisely because South Asia elites were corrupt to the core and only thought about themselves. They sold to the fist highest bidder and would join hands wit the devil to gain wealth or power. This disease that afflicted South Asia soon became apparent to the English who then played them like musical instrument. Next thing Raj was ruling 1/5th of humanity. You can argue that our pre-colonial elites were bag of greatness and dwelled over a super - power economy and then at the same time say a few "Goras" knocked them over coast to coast. They managed to so because of the vain, corrupt elite in South Asia.

Today our elite is the proud successor of that elite. If only they were colonized and thought and acted like the ruling elites of West who have built incredible states. In one of which I reside and the other you do.

The other successive states like China, Japan and South Korea are effectively Western clones. To a large degree the most succesful Muslim country - Turkey is also more European then Asiatic.

 

[padamchen]

Eventually one needs a bridge language to build a nation.

For India, that language as it evolved is Hindi. And it also happens to be the mother tongue of a large number of Indians.

For Pakistan, it should ideally similarly have been Punjabi.

I don't know why Urdu was chosen.

Maybe this once more goes back to Pakistan's inherent in(dis)ability in cutting it's umblical cord to India.

Maybe a subconscious yearning to be able to continue to converse with, abuse, and be understood by the largest possible number of brothers they broke away from, decades after the partition.

Who knows.

Subliminal.

Cheers, Doc

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

As regards the thrust of your argumant I will say it again. Most of the Pak elite act like and behave like the Moghul and other royal houses of the east. As despotic, dynastic, elitest, utter contempt for the ordinary man, misrule, corruption, gluttony etc etc.

This was the exact reason the much touted Moghul Empire came crashing down and a sub-continent that had 20% of humanity was taken over by few Gora Sahibs from a tiny speck of a island from other side of the world. they managed to do that precisely because South Asia elites were corrupt to the core and only thought about themselves. They sold to the fist highest bidder and would join hands wit the devil to gain wealth or power. This disease that afflicted South Asia soon became apparent to the English who then played them like musical instrument. Next thing Raj was ruling 1/5th of humanity. You can argue that our pre-colonial elites were bag of greatness and dwelled over a super - power economy and then at the same time say a few "Goras" knocked them over coast to coast. They managed to so because of the vain, corrupt elite in South Asia.

Today our elite is the proud successor of that elite. If only they were colonized and thought and acted like the ruling elites of West who have built incredible states. In one of which I reside and the other you do.

The other successive states like China, Japan and South Korea are effectively Western clones. To a large degree the most succesful Muslim country - Turkey is also more European then Asiatic.

Bro, as someone said on this thread earlier on, Pakistan's ruling elite are like aliens from outer space who have come here to suck the resources of the country and loot the people. They have no empathy or humanity for the ordinary people.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Just as a note there are some communties in South Asia that can be accused of being "colonized" by the English or West in the sense that they have taken on board large aspects of Western thinking. In this regard the community in South Asia that is most Anglocized to the point that many even Anglocized their names is Parsee. We all know how successful they are. Second on my list would be Sikhs. Again I see how successful they are.

Maybe this once more goes back to Pakistan's inherent in(dis)ability in cutting it's umblical cord to India.

No. It goes back to being the language of good chunk of the ML elite pre 1947. That assured it's ascendancy. Much of that elite moved to Karachi in 1947. That elite ruled Pakistan in the formative period until power was grabbed by the military which was more Punjabi dominated. But the Grand Trunk Road elite co-opted with the Urdu speaking elite and that is what we have had or differant iterations of it ever since.

We have classic South Asia elite like we always had but which has decorated itself with some manners of the West. I would much them give up English, speak their own languages but act like the ruling elite in Japan, Korea, China etc

Bro, as someone said on this thread earlier on, Pakistan's ruling elite are like aliens from outer space

They are not. If only. They are exactly like our elite was before British came. Please explain how a few English bummed all of South Asia. Was it because we had superpower economy? Was it because we had super ruling elite? They were almost like the elite we have today. They only though about themselves. tell me Nawaz Sharif. Does he behave like a Moghul or a Western ruler? Bhutto goes, daughter comes, Benezir goes, son comes. Ditto Nawaz Sharif. We have elites who behave like the Moghul/feudal elite of the past who did not give crap about the ordinary man.

Do we have elites in West behaving like that? Cameron, Cameron son, Cameron's grandson etc ec.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Just as a note there are some communties in South Asia that can be accused of being "colonized" by the English or West in the sense that they have taken on board large aspects of Western thinking. In this regard the community in South Asia that is most Anglocized to the point that many even Anglocized their names is Parsee. We all know how successful they are. Second on my list would be Sikhs. Again I see how successful they are.

No. It goes back to being the language of good chunk of the ML elite pre 1947. That assured it's ascendancy. Much of that elite moved to Karachi in 1947. That elite ruled Pakistan in the formative period until power was grabbed by the military which was more Punjabi dominated. But the Grand Trunk Road elite co-opted with the Urdu speaking elite and that is what we have had or differant iterations of it ever since.

We have classic South Asia elite like we always had but which has decorated itself with some manners of the West. I would much them give up English, speak their own languages but act like the ruling elite in Japan, Korea, China etc

They are not. If only. They are exactly like our elite was before British came. Please explain how a few English bummed all of South Asia. Was it because we had superpower economy? Was it because we had super ruling elite? They were almost like the elite we have today. They only though about themselves. tell me Nawaz Sharif. Does he behave like a Moghul or a Western ruler? Bhutto goes, daughter comes, Benezir goes, son comes. Ditto Nawaz Sharif. We have elites who behave like the Moghul/feudal elite of the past who did not give crap about the ordinary man.

Do we have elites in West behaving like that? Cameron, Cameron son, Cameron's grandson etc ec.

Bro, if our ruling elite were like that of the West we would have been as powerful as Israel.

 

[RiazHaq]

The issue is not about acceptance. Many have accepted English also by your own admission. The fact is Urdu is not a mother tongue of majority. 70 years of Urdu/English being peddled by the elites is going to impact the people but the fact is both were "alien" to the majority. Mother tongue within the referance you made to Turks, Japanese, Koreans means exactly that, mother tonque. Not a language from another region which has been transpanted by elites. I find it amusing and I say this will due respect how peope conflate Urdu with "mother tonque". It is not akin to Korean in South Korea, or Turkish in Turkey, or Arabic in Saudia.

I don't need to remind you about the Bengali language riots which preceded the 1972 events. While I accept after 70 years of state sonsorship Urdu has gained currency [like English in some quarters] but please don't conflate that with being mother tongue. It still is not to huge number of people.

There's absolutely no comparison between Urdu and English as far as acceptance in Pakistan is concerned.

Urdu is not the language of the colonizers who decimated India and Pakistan and left the subcontinent impoverished in 1947.

Attempts by several media companies to promote English language TV channels have miserably failed while Urdu language channels are thriving....a clear indication of people's preference in Pakistan.

As to East Pakistan and Bengali language, that chapter is long over for Pakistan. It's been nearly 50 years.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

There's absolutely no comparison between Urdu and English as far as acceptance in Pakistan is concerned.

Urdu is not the language of the colonizers who decimated India and Pakistan and left the subcontinent impoverished in 1947.

Attempts by several media companies to promote English language TV channels have miserably failed while Urdu language channels are thriving....a clear indication of people's preference in Pakistan.

As to East Pakistan and Bengali language, that chapter is long over for Pakistan. It's been nearly 50 years.

The real crux of the matter is the power of the Establishment

 

[Indus Pakistan]

decimated India

They may have

Pakistan

The British built Pakistan. Simple as that. if Britain had not come to South Asia there would have been no Pakistan. I have no idea about how the British 'decimated' your ancestors but i do know mine were freed from Sikh rule in 1849. I have no idea how that is decimation. Then they provided us with jobs as sepoys which was better then starving. They also built most of Punjab irrigation colonies without which all of Punjab would have been desert. And finally when they left in 1947 what stopped Nehru from bending over Pakistan like leaf - which he did to Hyderabad? The army Pak inheritated thans to British preferance for recruiting sepoys from certain groups most of them from what would become Pakistan which meant the new state inheritated a large military. It assured the states survival.