PAKISTAN - CRADLE OF CIVILIZATIONS

[Paan Singh]

So secular India is just so much rubbish sold to foreigners, the truth is that these so called Muslims, never were Indian, how do they be, they were Muslims - And the land they lived on was not theirs, they were merely there on sufferance of non-Muslims??

More Pakistanis should be made aware of this -- don't you agree?

This is what pakistanis say.They describe how they made pakistan or separate state for muslims.
I just posted this coz many among here understand this.

and @muse, Many muslims here suffer due to the creation of pakistan and they are labeled as pakistanis or the people who could not keep our country united but if we look carefully,decision was right.

I have myself seen people who sometimes call muslims here as pakistanis.

 

[muse]

This is what pakistanis say.

No need for evasion with me, I can handle it both ways - what I mean is that you can say what you think, not what you may think I want hear

,

Many muslims here suffer due to the creation of pakistan and they are labeled as pakistanis or the people who could not keep our country united but if we look carefully,decision was right

.

Obviously it was their country too, and if they decided to do something other than a united India, well, you know no point is crying over split milk -- As for Indian Muslims labeled Pakistanis, seems some in India learn as slowly as their counter parts in Pakistan, a that's a problem for Indians to resolve.

 

[muse]

[MENTION=28088]
Because last time I checked Indian Hindus still follow Sanskrit, Vedas, Customs, Ayurveda, Festivals. etc. for thousands of years living in this sub-continent for so many centuries. Still following Ganges Valley Civilization.

You claiming Pakistan as IVC based nation. Where is the connection with IVC characteristics and Pakistan ?
.[/B]

Is your claim that IVC's language was sanskrit? Because if it was not AND IT IS NOT, then what is the basis of your claim to a connection? After all, Do we know if Ayurvedic, Customs, and festivals of the IVC were those that you now today? Rather a bold statement, if that is what you are asserting

 

[KRAIT]

Is your claim that IVC's language was sanskrit? Because if it was not AND IT IS NOT, then what is the basis of your claim to a connection? After all, Do we know if Ayurvedic, Customs, and festivals of the IVC were those that you now today? Rather a bold statement, if that is what you are asserting

Where did I say that ? I mentioned Ganges Valley Civilization.

Many believe that the decline of the Harappan civilization was a result of Aryan invasions from the north. This theory seems logical because the Aryans came to power in the Ganges Valley shortly after the Indus demise of the Indus Valley Civilization.

Early Civilization in the Indus Valley [ushistory.org]

IVC has nothing to do with Hinduism.

I am not claiming IVC. I am claiming GVC. Pakistan has nothing to do with IVC.

"India was the motherland of our race
and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages.
India was the mother of our philosophy,
of much of our mathematics, of the ideals embodied in
Christianity... of self-government and democracy.
In many ways, Mother India is the mother of us all."

- Will Durant
- American Historian 1885-1981

 

[muse]

Where did I say that ? I mentioned Ganges Valley Civilization.
.

My apology I misunderstood -

Pakistan has nothing to do with IVC

.

In your opinion, this is so because _______?

 

[KRAIT]

My apology I misunderstood -
. In your opinion, this is so because _______?

Because it is shared history of Indian Subcontinent. Entire part of India and present day Pakistan.

Nation are bounded in Borders, Culture isn't. neither can be Religion. So I always disagree with a nation claiming entire Civilization. I see the Ancient India, from Pakistan, India, BD, Myanmar to be the breeding ground of Civilization in this region.

Archaeologists have determined that highly developed civilizations flourished throughout the Indus Valley between 4000 and 1500 B.C.E. But for still unknown reasons, the valley's inhabitants appear to have moved out rather suddenly. They resettled among new neighbors in northwestern India and encountered a group of people from central Asia who brought with them warrior ethics and a religion called Vedism.


Within the ruins of the ancient Indus Valley civilization, archaeologists have discovered many artifacts of modern Hinduism that were not found in any Vedic civilizations. These include statues and amulets of gods and goddesses, huge temple tanks for bathing, and sculptures of people in yoga postures.

Based on this evidence, it seems that when the people from central Asia settled in India, their Vedic beliefs were mingled with the beliefs of indigenous Indians. Thus, it is likely that the Indus Valley tradition and Vedic gods and beliefs combined to form the foundations of Hinduism.

The Rise of Hinduism [ushistory.org]

 

[Paan Singh]

Is your claim that IVC's language was sanskrit? Because if it was not AND IT IS NOT, then what is the basis of your claim to a connection? After all, Do we know if Ayurvedic, Customs, and festivals of the IVC were those that you now today? Rather a bold statement, if that is what you are asserting

The so-called Shiva Pashupati seal

Swastika Seals from the Indus Valley Civilization preserved at the British Museum.

Some Indus valley seals show swastikas, which are found in other religions worldwide, especially in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The earliest evidence for elements of Hinduism are alleged to have been present before and during the early Harappan period.[63] Phallic symbols interpreted as the much later Hindu Shiva lingam have been found in the Harappan remains

I short,IVC used to be present in parts of pakistan including india and afghanistan but it got finished slowly.

 

[scorpionx]

I do not understand,why do we fight over this same old topic. Do Indians follow the 7000 years old rituals followed by Indo-Aryan speaking folks? Do any Indian still worship the Gods they used to deliver sacrifices with strange rituals? The answer is no,we do not. The old vedic customs have disappeared with time.
Now coming to this strange IVC part. We are talking about a civilization,widespread over the boundaries shared by two enemy countries.We do not know what their language were,neither we know about their religious beliefs as well,Forget about following their customs. We do not know even the reason behind their disappearance with a concrete proof because they did not left anything to speculate.
It's the two countries common ancestry and to be researched by experts from both countries with a broader mindset because at the age of IVC who cared for India or Pakistan?

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

well what matters now is that we are PAKISTANIs ................

 

[Bang Galore]

Hmm, not really - I don't anybody in Pakistan is looking to live their past (possibly some Arabs past, but not their own) - What is beginning to happen is that more and more people are taking sides - Taking sides? what are on about? Taking sides in a culture war forced on them by Islamists - By acknowledging and celebrating one of it's past heritages, they want to affirm or make some statement about the depth of their cultural heritages and therefore about themselves even as they deny space to the Islamist premise,

Now as for the bit about nation built on Muslim identity "Stealing" the non-Muslim identity from those they are divorced from - that's not just inflammatory, it's down right stupid - the so called "identity" you affirm now, is certainly not the identity of the heritage in question, "secular" India's connection with it's any heritages is best negotiated, not asserted.

Fair enough. Our arguments are not made against those like you, extrapolating them out of context is not fair. No one questions the right of Pakistanis to IVC or indeed any part of the composite culture that has evolved in the sub continent. However when some of your fellow Pakistanis want to deny the IVC connection to Indians simply because they hold ticketing rights but yet want to claim Tipu sultan, surely you agree that they have to be called out on their claims.

So secular India is just so much rubbish sold to foreigners, the truth is that these so called Muslims, never were Indian, how do they be, they were Muslims - And the land they lived on was not theirs, they were merely there on sufferance of non-Muslims??

More Pakistanis should be made aware of this -- don't you agree?

Sometimes people get intoxicated by their own verbosity, all this competitive abuse..............

 

[Surenas]

The problem is that this ancient civilization hasn't give Pakistanis any sense of historical identity. Thats the main difference with ancient civilizations in Iran, Greece, Rome, etc.

 

[muse]

Archaeologists have determined that highly developed civilizations flourished throughout the Indus Valley between 4000 and 1500 B.C.E. But for still unknown reasons, the valley's inhabitants appear to have moved out rather suddenly. They resettled among new neighbors in northwestern India and encountered a group of people from central Asia who brought with them warrior ethics and a religion called Vedism.


Within the ruins of the ancient Indus Valley civilization, archaeologists have discovered many artifacts of modern Hinduism that were not found in any Vedic civilizations. These include statues and amulets of gods and goddesses, huge temple tanks for bathing, and sculptures of people in yoga postures.

Based on this evidence, it seems that when the people from central Asia settled in India, their Vedic beliefs were mingled with the beliefs of indigenous Indians. Thus, it is likely that the Indus Valley tradition and Vedic gods and beliefs combined to form the foundations of Hinduism.

The Rise of Hinduism [ushistory.org]

But this just one interpretation of the evidence, an alternate, and one that is gaining adherents, system collapse.
Some our Indians friends get carried away, they make connections not entirely warranted - and I say this because there is more that we do not know than what we do know, and certainly cultural exchange has always accompanied trade.

The larger point I was hoping to understand better is, what is clear as one goes through this thread, is the sense among Indian friends that Pakistan have no claim to even themselves even, and while it's unfortunate and I think it's fair to say that Pakistanis "get it" (after all there are reasons there is a Pakistan), Indian friends position on the subject appears very insular, a whole lot of certitude in it , is that really a good thing?

 

[Bang Galore]

They resettled among new neighbors in northwestern India and encountered a group of people from central Asia who brought with them warrior ethics and a religion called Vedism.
[/B]


..............
Based on this evidence, it seems that when the people from central Asia settled in India, their Vedic beliefs were mingled with the beliefs of indigenous Indians.

I'm afraid that there is no proof/evidence of any of this stuff .

 

[KRAIT]

@muse Well both you and I know that few people instead of comparing themselves with better people, try to belittle others for Ego Feed.

I will discuss with you rationally but when some Average Joe from Pakistan posts 1000 years rule, I have to cut his ladder to bring him to the ground so that he can get his senses and understand the reality.

Even with having such a great civilization in our region, we have lost what our ancestors provided us. We are loosing our identity and pretending that we have one.

One is loosing faster than other, so relatively the first one is in identity crisis for second one but in absolute sense, the second one is also loosing it.

We Indians are forgetting Philosophy of our ancestors that kept this region to flourish in worst times and stood against the tide of time.

We are getting modern in materialistic sense but becoming animals in Morality.

 

[muse]

There is and there is not proof - What the heck does that mean? it means our knowledge in this matter is very limited - we should be more circumspect