Pakistan Civil Aviation | Information & News.

[khanboy007]

@imiakhtar do you think one aircraft crash signifies the fate of pia for that whole year, and if it (pia) was in a poor helpless situation then how did it go for the 777-200LR ??

 

[mehboobkz]

Arizona is extremely dry so it helps with aircraft storage by minimising corrosion.

Lol LOl LOL

By yr standards, Airbus should open a branch there, where even Boeing does not have one.

Ireland is a nation where 9 out of 10 Aircraft leasing companies exist.

Arizona has a Aircraft graveyard, people dont go there to buy lease an aircraft.

Airlines take the delivery from Seattle Boeing plant, whether they buy or lease.

Lol talking about boneyard.

 

[imiakhtar]

@imiakhtar do you think one aircraft crash signifies the fate of pia for that whole year, and if it (pia) was in a poor helpless situation then how did it go for the 777-200LR ??

Yes it does.

Safety and aircraft purchasing rarely go hand in hand. In the 777 order case, PIA was paying with it's own money (albeit guaranteed by the US). Boeing doesn't give a toss if PIA buys their aircraft and tomorrow drives them into the side of a hill.

Look at Lion air in Indonesia. They have one of the youngest 737 fleets in the world and a huge order book, and yet they're still on the EU blacklist. They could turn up in Toulouse tomorrow (and rumours suggest they will) and order a huge batch of Airbus aircraft and they will still be banned from EU skies. That is because there are ingrained safety deficiencies which have been identified by foreign audits.

In the run up to 2006 crash for PIA the warning signs had been there for the airline. PIA aircraft had been busting noise curfews at British airports as they were constantly late.

There were a number of emergency and priority landings by PIA 747s in the UK within a short period of time (some of which are on youtube).

There was an Airbus A300 which had a high speed RTO in DXB due to tyres which hadn't been re-tread properly. The damage to the aircraft and landing gear resulted in it being written off.

The fokker 27 crash was just the final straw when the British CAA decided to do an audit of PIA facilities and training and found severe shortcomings, ie the maintenance records of A310 aircraft were not complete.

As such the CAA in the UK pressed EASA to blacklist the 747 and A310 aircraft (most of them) shortly after in 2007:

Europe lifts ban on Phuket, adds PIA to updated blacklist | Aeropolitics content from ATWOnline

BBC NEWS | Europe | EU bans Pakistan airline flights

Recently, their maintenance has come into question once again with DGAC and CAA delaying aircraft for safety checks.

 

[imiakhtar]

Lol LOl LOL

By yr standards, Airbus should open a branch there, where even Boeing does not have one.

Ireland is a nation where 9 out of 10 Aircraft leasing companies exist.

Arizona has a Aircraft graveyard, people dont go there to buy lease an aircraft.

Airlines take the delivery from Seattle Boeing plant, whether they buy or lease.

Lol talking about boneyard.

You're putting words into my mouth you silly person. Aircraft are stored there when they're not in use as it is dry and conducive to good storage. Of course boeing and airbus don't deliver from there. I never said they did.

All I said was that there are plenty of 747-400s sitting in the desert in much better condition than PIA 747-300s and much lower operating costs. The fact that airlines are parking their 747s up and not converting them to cargo aircraft shows n

1) The weakness in the cargo market

2) The inability of the 747-200/300/400 to make money flying cargo

which renders khanboy's opinion that they should be utilised as freighters or leased out with no demand equally as silly.

 

[mehboobkz]

You're putting words into my mouth you silly person. Aircraft are stored there when they're not in use as it is dry and conducive to good storage. Of course boeing and airbus don't deliver from there. I never said they did.

That is a grave yard for aircrafts that are NOT sold from there, barring few spares for whatever reasons. Why would you bring this issue of Arizona is beyond me, knowing that PIA's planes wont end up there any soon.

All I said was that there are plenty of 747-400s sitting in the desert in much better condition than PIA 747-300s and much lower operating costs. The fact that airlines are parking their 747s up and not converting them to cargo aircraft shows n

The planes in storage in Arkansas bone yard are there to be deconstructed or will be scraped. So whats yr moot point.

That was the thrust of my post.

 

[razgriz19]

PIA has one of the worst maintenance records. And now they're just getting worse and worse.
My cousin just came to Toronto and his aircraft had to land in Manchester because of landing gear problems...

There is one huge problem in the system. There are NOT enough and adequate training programs.
We get our technicians from the air force. Now there is nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing right with that either IF we dont train them properly and bring them up to the standard of
CIVIL aviation.

In Canada, an aviantech from the military HAS to go through the schooling AGAIN before they can join the civil industry!

 

[Sugarcane]

 

[imiakhtar]

That is a grave yard for aircrafts that are NOT sold from there, barring few spares for whatever reasons. Why would you bring this issue of Arizona is beyond me, knowing that PIA's planes wont end up there any soon.



The planes in storage in Arkansas bone yard are there to be deconstructed or will be scraped. So whats yr moot point.

That was the thrust of my post.

Incorrect.

Many of the 747-400s in the Boneyards are very much serviceable.

Currently, there are at least 11 747-400s, ex-Cathay, Singapore, Qantas, Korean and one British Airways which could be flown away in 48hrs. Furthermore, many of the aircraft, especially the Qantas birds have a low number of Flight hours and cycles on them.

That's why they are stored in an airworthy condition and not scrap.

To further the point, the most recent P-3s delivered to the Pakistan Navy were from the boneyard.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

More information on aircraft boneyards, if anyone is interested:

Field Guide To Aircraft Boneyards

 

[Jango]

The planes in storage in Arkansas bone yard are there to be deconstructed or will be scraped. So whats yr moot point.

That was the thrust of my post.

There are different categories.

Aircraft are stored there for scrapping, for use as spare parts source and for storage if the aircraft would be sold at a later date.

If they are well covered, chocks in place, engines covered, all covers are fitted tightly, it means the aircraft is for sale.

 

[Nishan_101]

PIA, in a bid to overcome delays in flight operations, will induct five aircraft in its fleet on dry lease by March and April this year.

According to official sources, around eight narrow body aircraft (A-320) are being inducted on dry lease in the fleet of the national carrier.

In the first phase, five aircraft will be included during the current year to overcome shortage of planes and improve reliability, punctuality and regularity of flights.

The sources said that PIA's fleet consists of 38 aircraft, out of which, only 29 were in operation.

Currently, 13 planes have been grounded for the maintenance checks and five aircraft will be operational by end of this month, he added.

Some aircraft have been permanently grounded keeping in view the structural/corrosion issues and high cost of recovery.

The sources further revealed that PIA suffered loss during last Hajj operation due to subsidized fare and high fuel cost. PIA had fixed Rs.72,000 fare for the Hajj operation against normal fare of Rs.108,000, he added.

Currently PIA was not operating flights for South Africa and Kenya due to limited market size in African market, lack of commercial viability and fleet constraints.

Five aircraft to be inducted in PIA | The Nation

The most easiest thing for them is to sell about 49% shares to any Middle Eastern Carrier that will make it profitable as well as will create more jobs in Pakistan....

 

[mehboobkz]

There are different categories.

Aircraft are stored there for scrapping, for use as spare parts source and for storage if the aircraft would be sold at a later date.

If they are well covered, chocks in place, engines covered, all covers are fitted tightly, it means the aircraft is for sale.

Airplane Graveyard - Arizona Military Airplane Graveyards

Many people think the government sells flying airplanes to the general public, this is not true. Anything the government sells, which could cause potential injuries, like a life raft, pilot helmet, or a flying aircraft will be demilled before it leaves the base. Demilling which stands for de-militarize, includes slashing rafts with a razor knife, crushing helmets, or in the case of an airplane chopping the wings off, or cutting the fuselage into three pieces. Some of the aircraft stored at the Bone Yard are turned into remotely controlled drone aircraft like what was done with the F-106 drone program.

 

[khanboy007]

Yes it does.

Safety and aircraft purchasing rarely go hand in hand. In the 777 order case, PIA was paying with it's own money (albeit guaranteed by the US). Boeing doesn't give a toss if PIA buys their aircraft and tomorrow drives them into the side of a hill.

Look at Lion air in Indonesia. They have one of the youngest 737 fleets in the world and a huge order book, and yet they're still on the EU blacklist. They could turn up in Toulouse tomorrow (and rumours suggest they will) and order a huge batch of Airbus aircraft and they will still be banned from EU skies. That is because there are ingrained safety deficiencies which have been identified by foreign audits.

In the run up to 2006 crash for PIA the warning signs had been there for the airline. PIA aircraft had been busting noise curfews at British airports as they were constantly late.

There were a number of emergency and priority landings by PIA 747s in the UK within a short period of time (some of which are on youtube).

There was an Airbus A300 which had a high speed RTO in DXB due to tyres which hadn't been re-tread properly. The damage to the aircraft and landing gear resulted in it being written off.

The fokker 27 crash was just the final straw when the British CAA decided to do an audit of PIA facilities and training and found severe shortcomings, ie the maintenance records of A310 aircraft were not complete.

As such the CAA in the UK pressed EASA to blacklist the 747 and A310 aircraft (most of them) shortly after in 2007:

Europe lifts ban on Phuket, adds PIA to updated blacklist | Aeropolitics content from ATWOnline

BBC NEWS | Europe | EU bans Pakistan airline flights

Recently, their maintenance has come into question once again with DGAC and CAA delaying aircraft for safety checks.

you are right about the 2007 bit here a clip from 2007 , but i still wont believe that pia was in grave situations in 2005-2006 i would use your own quoted values B777-200ER – $43.0 – 118.0M, $450-950,000 certainly LR would be much more expencive, so how was it afforded ???

 

[Jango]

Airplane Graveyard - Arizona Military Airplane Graveyards

I was referring to civilian aircraft.

 

[imiakhtar]

you are right about the 2007 bit here a clip from 2007 , but i still wont believe that pia was in grave situations in 2005-2006

Again, don't take my word for it. Read the Pakistan CAA report into the crash which identifies systemic deficiencies in aircraft maintenance and pilot training. PIA had to spend over $10 million on their maintenance facilities after the EU blacklist.

i would use your own quoted values B777-200ER – $43.0 – 118.0M, $450-950,000 certainly LR would be much more expencive, so how was it afforded ???

Again, when I suggested you follow the Pakistan aviation master thread, you didn't follow my instructions as most of the details are contained therein.

In the initial 777 order, the Pakistan Govt paid for the 777s via a offshore vehicle they set up in the Cayman Islands. The money didn't come from PIA so buying new aircraft wasn't an issue as the Govt was writing the cheques.

Also, the values I used were current book values, ie a valuation range for aircraft currently in service.

The last 777-200ER delivered to an airline was HL8254 which was delivered to Asiana almost a year ago. The high end of that evaluation of $118 million most likely represents that frame. (Remember the -200LR is closer to the -300ER price due to it having the bigger engines)