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Ah.. the Khaqan Abbasi clan.. lots of money to offer.

The 320's should offer a reduction in fuel losses and savings.. and are more suited to PIA's current routes.

The 747s can live to come in some other day

747 wont live for ever :disagree:
 
PIA was tricked into buying the 200lr version by Boeing, the only reason PIA got them was because they were promised direct flights to USA from Pakistan.

i cant say tricked, but we played our part in spoiling our own carrier in the airline industry, PIA was on a boom in 2005-2006.

A380 is not for PIA, besides none of Pakistani airports can handle them..

one more thing the new islamabad international airport can handle the A380 as the runway is made to handle it so why not use it ???
 
one more thing the new islamabad international airport can handle the A380 as the runway is made to handle it so why not use it ???
Runway isn't the only factor you have to look into, the airport must have wide taxiways, terminal building which can handle a380 without disrupting other flights and ground services. NIIA has all of these, I'm sure emirates will send their a380 to inaugurate the new airport and we might see British airways back in Islamabad.
 
Runway isn't the only factor you have to look into, the airport must have wide taxiways, terminal building which can handle a380 without disrupting other flights and ground services. NIIA has all of these, I'm sure emirates will send their a380 to inaugurate the new airport and we might see British airways back in Islamabad.

what i mean to say is that the new airport is constructed keeping future plans in mind, and if the runway can handle it so can the terminal building, THE NEW AIRPORT IS MEANT TO HANDLE IT so make use of it, even if its not able to handle it when built, it has an expansion plan too so the airport can be expanded to accommodate it :tup: :D , yeah ur right we may see many other airlines too :)
 
good news

but

What about restoration of previous aircraft's

here is some thing i came across Airliners.net

i agree its not only PIA which has such images, but when aircraft are needed why not restore them

2203788.jpg


Photos: Boeing 737-340 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

2229021.jpg


Photos: Boeing 747-240BM Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

2202630.jpg


Photos: Boeing 747-240BM Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

NOTE: the two boeing 747's are different as seen from their liveries

atleast not waste those 747's

These aircrafts are in this condition for a REASON.
They have COMPLETED their lives.
And They were not fuel efficient.

New aircraft are needed so PIA can save some on gas.
 
PIA was tricked into buying the 200lr version by Boeing, the only reason PIA got them was because they were promised direct flights to USA from Pakistan.

I don't know about US, but PIA visits 3 times a week to Toronto.

This was filmed at YYZ - Toronto Int
 
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But if you are only going to be filling 180 seats.. there is little need for the other 220.

PIA In this Case should Convert these Jumbos Into Cargo Carriers.
Or Lease them out....
four mouths are harder to feed.
little traffic does not justify their fleet presence
 
this is how you breakdown a 747

 
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PIA's real problem is not the type of aircraft it operates. PIA's real problem is massive over-staffing. It simply has too many employees per airplane, with many of those employees enjoying too many free perks.

I have heard of this regularly. The PPP government when it took over, inducted a large number of party supporters and workers for no reason at all... now the place is over-staffed. PIA is losing a lot of money and there is no one to stop the money going right down the drain.
 
I have heard of this regularly. The PPP government when it took over, inducted a large number of party supporters and workers for no reason at all... now the place is over-staffed. PIA is losing a lot of money and there is no one to stop the money going right down the drain.

Here you go, Sir:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

"PIA leads the world in employees per aircraft ratio with 424 employees per aircraft, while Indian Airlines has 276 and the United Airlines with the highest ratio in the US has 120 employees per aircraft."

====================

(The most efficient airlines are somewhere in the 60-80 employees per aircraft range.)
 
avenue for more corruption.

TI Pakistan advises PIA to procure 20 narrow-body aircraft on dry lease

February 21, 2013 IQBAL MIRZA


Transparency International Pakistan has advised Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) to immediately procure 20 narrow body aircraft from Shahid Khaqan Abbassi MNA, who has offered brand new aircraft on lease at half the price for five Airbus 320 being leased by PIA at $36.8 million, with financing from Bank of China.

In a letter sent by TI-Pakistan Adviser Syed Adil Gilani on February 20 to Captain Muhammad Junaid Younus, Acting Managing Director PIA, he referred to the meeting of the Special Committee of the National Assembly on February 19, where MNA Shahid Khaqan Abbassi offered brand new aircraft on lease at half the price for five Airbus 320 being leased by PIA at $36.8 million, with financing from Bank of China.

HE QUOTED FOLLOWING DETAILS AS HAVE BEEN REPORTED:

a) The committee was informed that PIA would be getting five Airbus 320 at $36.8 million, with financing from Bank of China.

b) The committee noted that the five planes which PIA intends to get on dry lease were costly than open market rates.

c) Shahid Khaqan Abbassi even offered brand new aircraft at lease to PIA at half the price in response to a presentation made by PIA CFO Aftab Ahmed regarding business plan for revival of PIA.

d) Aftab explained that they had to abide by the PPRA rules and they were not in a position to negotiate.

Adil Gilani said if the above report was correct, " Transparency International Pakistan would like to suggest PIA to request MNA Shahid Khaqan Abbassi to provide four sets of five Airbus 320 new aircraft as reportedly offered by him in the Committee meeting, for six years dry lease immediately, at half the tendered price of $36.8 million.

Public Procurement Rules 2004 allows negotiated tendering under Rule No 42 (d) in certain cases.

RULE 42: ALTERNATIVE METHODS OF PROCUREMENTS:

A procuring agency may utilise the following alternative methods of procurement of goods, services and works, namely:-

(d) Negotiated tendering: A procuring agency may engage in negotiated tendering with one or more suppliers or contractors with or without prior publication of a procurement notification. This procedure shall only be used when,-

(iii) For reasons of extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseeable by the procuring agency, the time limits laid down for open and limited bidding methods cannot be met. The circumstances invoked to justify extreme urgency must not be attributable to the procuring agency:

Provided that any procuring agency desirous of using negotiated tendering as a method of procurement shall record its reasons and justifications in writing for resorting to negotiated tendering and shall place the same on record.

PIA has processed procurement of narrow body aircrafts in accordance with requirement of Public Procurement Rules 2004 from October 2012 to February 2013. As the lowest evaluated responsive bidder has offered five Airbus 320 being leased by PIA at $36.8 million, which as stated by MNA Shahid Khaqan Abbassi as double than the market prices, PIA may use Rule No 42 (d) (iii), for accepting the offer of MNA Shahid Khaqan Abbassi of providing four sets of five Airbus 320 or equivalent new aircraft on six-year dry lease immediately, at half the lowest tendered price of $36.8 million. The reason of extreme urgency is due to failure of bidders to offer narrow body aircrafts at economical cost, which is causing loss to PIA of billions of rupees in loss of traffic. PIA shall record the reason of using negotiated tendering under Rule No 42 (d), and justifications for resorting to negotiated tendering, as stated in paragraph five above in writing and shall place the same on record.

TI-Pakistan was striving for across the board application of Rule of Law, which was the only way to stop corruption, he said. Copies of the letter have been forwarded for the information with the request to take action under the authority vested in their respective jurisdictions: Chairman, Public Accounts Committee, Islamabad; Registrar, Supreme Court of Pakistan, Islamabad; Chairman, NAB, Islamabad; Chairman, PIA, Islamabad; Auditor General, Islamabad; and Managing Director, PPRA, Islamabad.


Business Recorder, 2013

Shame, those level headed and well reasoned posts of yours seem to disappear when you babble on the topic of PIA.

Firstly, PIA will be paying market rates for the A320. Due to the PIA's poor credit rating, higher risk and high technical specs of the aircraft requested, the lease rates offered were on the higher end but not unreasonable and within the market norms. Aircraft book and monthly Lease value examples here:

A319 – $12.0-34.4M, $120-260,000
A320 – $4.0 - 40.5M, $65-300,000
A321 – $20.0 - 48.5M, $180-365,000
A330-200 – $40.0 - 88.5M, $400-830,000
A340-300 – $8.0 -55.0M, $180-490,000
B737-300 – $1.8 – 6.0M, $40-90,000
B737-700 - $13.0 - 36.0M, $140-290,000
B737-800 - $17.0 - 44.5M, $190-350,000
B737-900ER - $33.5 - 48.0M, $290-390,000
B747-400 – $12.0 – 50.0M, $220-550,000
B757-200 – $6.0 – 21.0M, $100-220,000
B767-300ER – $10.0 – 61.5M, $170-460,000
B777-200ER – $43.0 – 118.0M, $450-950,000
B777-300ER – $93.0 – 158.0M, $850-1,400,000
MD-11 - $8.0 – 13.0M , $150-210,000
MD-82 - $0.7 - 2.2M, $25-48,000
CRJ200 – $1.8 - 6.5M, $35-85,000
CRJ700 – $10.5 – 22.5M, $105-225,000
CRJ900 - $13.0 – 25.0M, $135-250,000
Q400 – $10.0 – 19.5M, $120-220,000
ERJ145 – $4.0 – 8.9M, $45-105,000
EMB170 – $14.4 – 26.2M, $140-240,000
EMB190 – $20.7 – 32.6M, $195-285,000
ATR-72 – $6.8 – 18.1M, $85-180,000

Also, if this Abbassi chap could have gotten A320s at a better rate, why didn't he submit a bid to the tender requirements?

A320 :cry: for 2 747's :cry:
like 750 passengers for 800-1200 passengers

what are they doing we are losing (1200-750 =350) 350 passengers i.e 2 complete airbus A320's

anyways atleast they are not leasing very old A320's :)

but im still not happy with PIA's progress (if the word progress exists in PIA's dictionary !!!!!)

The A320s are to make up a shortfall in capacity from 737 and A310 groundings and or maintenance work. The 77W will replace the 747s.

Better to buy couple of new jets rather than leasing 5-6. Leasing has no economic benefits.

How many airlines have billions in capital sitting idle in their banks?

i cant say tricked, but we played our part in spoiling our own carrier in the airline industry, PIA was on a boom in 2005-2006.

PIA was in a mess in 2005-2006. The problems facing PIA now are due to decisions made a decade ago in the 90s and 2000s.

The Fokker 27 which crashed on takeoff from LHE in 2006 was precipitated by poor engine maintenance.

PIA In this Case should Convert these Jumbos Into Cargo Carriers.
Or Lease them out....
four mouths are harder to feed.
little traffic does not justify their fleet presence

Nobody would buy the 747s.

There just isn't a market for them.

Why buy a high cycle 747-300 with a three man cockpit, 1980 generation engines, a history of poor maintenance etc when you could just go and pick a 747-400 up from Arizona with up-to-date engines, avionic and interiors for slightly more?
 
747-400 up from Arizona with up-to-date engines, avionic and interiors for slightly more?


Why Arizona of all the places and not Seattle?
before I come to other contents.
 
Shame, those level headed and well reasoned posts of yours seem to disappear when you babble on the topic of PIA.

Firstly, PIA will be paying market rates for the A320. Due to the PIA's poor credit rating, higher risk and high technical specs of the aircraft requested, the lease rates offered were on the higher end but not unreasonable and within the market norms. Aircraft book and monthly Lease value examples here:

A319 – $12.0-34.4M, $120-260,000
A320 – $4.0 - 40.5M, $65-300,000
A321 – $20.0 - 48.5M, $180-365,000
A330-200 – $40.0 - 88.5M, $400-830,000
A340-300 – $8.0 -55.0M, $180-490,000
B737-300 – $1.8 – 6.0M, $40-90,000
B737-700 - $13.0 - 36.0M, $140-290,000
B737-800 - $17.0 - 44.5M, $190-350,000
B737-900ER - $33.5 - 48.0M, $290-390,000
B747-400 – $12.0 – 50.0M, $220-550,000
B757-200 – $6.0 – 21.0M, $100-220,000
B767-300ER – $10.0 – 61.5M, $170-460,000
B777-200ER – $43.0 – 118.0M, $450-950,000
B777-300ER – $93.0 – 158.0M, $850-1,400,000
MD-11 - $8.0 – 13.0M , $150-210,000
MD-82 - $0.7 - 2.2M, $25-48,000
CRJ200 – $1.8 - 6.5M, $35-85,000
CRJ700 – $10.5 – 22.5M, $105-225,000
CRJ900 - $13.0 – 25.0M, $135-250,000
Q400 – $10.0 – 19.5M, $120-220,000
ERJ145 – $4.0 – 8.9M, $45-105,000
EMB170 – $14.4 – 26.2M, $140-240,000
EMB190 – $20.7 – 32.6M, $195-285,000
ATR-72 – $6.8 – 18.1M, $85-180,000

Also, if this Abbassi chap could have gotten A320s at a better rate, why didn't he submit a bid to the tender requirements?



The A320s are to make up a shortfall in capacity from 737 and A310 groundings and or maintenance work. The 77W will replace the 747s.



How many airlines have billions in capital sitting idle in their banks?



PIA was in a mess in 2005-2006. The problems facing PIA now are due to decisions made a decade ago in the 90s and 2000s.

The Fokker 27 which crashed on takeoff from LHE in 2006 was precipitated by poor engine maintenance.



Nobody would buy the 747s.

There just isn't a market for them.

Why buy a high cycle 747-300 with a three man cockpit, 1980 generation engines, a history of poor maintenance etc when you could just go and pick a 747-400 up from Arizona with up-to-date engines, avionic and interiors for slightly more?

kindly post the links of all what u have just posted !!!!
 
Why Arizona of all the places and not Seattle?
before I come to other contents.

Arizona is extremely dry so it helps with aircraft storage by minimising corrosion.

kindly post the links of all what u have just posted !!!!

Aircraft market value and lease monthly rates taken from here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5608606/

Laxintl, the regular poster of such info is an airline consultant having worked with Turkish and Virgin atlantic and as such he has access to the book values from appraisal firms here:

Publications - Aircraft Values Book - International Bureau of Aviation

AVITAS - The Leading Advisor to the Aviation Industry

Ascend Online Values | Engine & Aircraft Valuations | Ascend | Ascend

Since the information was posted there has not been any production increases/decreases for the A320 or any bankruptcies which means the values and lease rates will be largely unchanged.

The reasons for the induction of the A320 and 77W have been covered by the PIA master thread and there are links to PIA press releases as well as the tender, bidding and technical documents.

Again, the increasing use of lease in acquiring and operating aircraft is illustrated by the rise of the lease houses particularly GECAS and ILFC who between them have over 2500 aircraft and increasing.

Airlines just can not risk expanding precious capital on aircraft deposits with such a volatile airline industry:

GECAS - Fleet

http://www.ilfc.com/ILFC_factsheet.pdf

Also, if you're willing to trawl around the lessor websites, you will also find the book values and lease rates of aircraft in company documents.

The report into the PIA fokker crash can be found here:

http://www.caapakistan.com.pk/downl...-27 Reg AP-BAL on 10 JUL 06 (11 May 2012).pdf

Below is a link to atlas air, a well respected and extremely well run airline (incidentally founded by a pakistani). If you go through the investor slides and press releases, you will see how weak the cargo demand is and how they're struggling to make money even with new 747-8fs:

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings
 
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