Pakistan & China in 1.4 billion dollar J-10 jet deal

[unicorn148]

firstly, LCA is a third generation jet, and it is still under testing, but both J-10 and FC-1 are already in the air.
secondly, MCA is only a plan, a plan on the paper. however, the Chinese j-XX project is confirmed by the general of AF, and "it will have the first-fly soon, and equiped in 8-10 years"
thirdly, Pak FA is not a Indian project, that's a Russ 5th Gen fighter, you just provide the money, that's it.

LCA is not a third its 4.5 generation jet and even the j10 is fourt generation and j10B will be a 4.5 generation which is still in testing and lca mark 2 will be ready by 2012
MCA is a program to make a fifth generation plane to replace the jaguars and the working on the project has already be started

JXX will aslo take more than 10 years to induct because its far from testing According to the PLA's Deputy Commander He Weirong the Chinese fifth generation fighter is expected to be in service with the PLAAF by 2017-2019. because it will take more than five years to induct a plane after testing it took 7-8 years for j10 to induct after testing

FGFA is not completely russian some of the components are indian also and hal is also taking part in the project
FGFA will have ::

* Indian Avionics
* Indian Softwares
* Dual Seat Interface

dual seat interface will be developed by india because the russian plane will not have this capability
and india will induct this plane by 2015-2017 before the plaaf will induct the JXX

many planes that india induct will have indian components same as su 30mki which makes it the most powerful jet of the su 30 family

 

[mughaljee]

You can never convince two people, an Indian and a Jew

Very Ture

 

[SBD-3]

when facts have weight, people often deploy avoiding tactics like this.

ya sure FACT
if you talk about fact then Tejas is not HAL Tejas....................it should be Dessault Tejas IN. No HAL FGFA but Shukhi FGFA IN.

 

[S10]

LCA is not a third its 4.5 generation jet and even the j10 is fourt generation and j10B will be a 4.5 generation which is still in testing and lca mark 2 will be ready by 2012
MCA is a program to make a fifth generation plane to replace the jaguars and the working on the project has already be started

So you are telling me that LCA MKII is coming, despite that the original isn't even in service. That would be similar to China developing the J-10B without the J-10 ever being finished. You just simply can't have great leap forward in technology like that.

JXX will aslo take more than 10 years to induct because its far from testing According to the PLA's Deputy Commander He Weirong the Chinese fifth generation fighter is expected to be in service with the PLAAF by 2017-2019. because it will take more than five years to induct a plane after testing it took 7-8 years for j10 to induct after testing.

FGFA is not completely russian some of the components are indian also and hal is also taking part in the project
FGFA will have ::

* Indian Avionics
* Indian Softwares
* Dual Seat Interface

dual seat interface will be developed by india because the russian plane will not have this capability
and india will induct this plane by 2015-2017 before the plaaf will induct the JXX

J-XX is due to fly in the next two years and enter operational service around 2020, according to military official. The Russians on the other hand, said PAK-FA will fly every year since 2006. They have been unable to keep their promise each time due to money constraints. Given this pattern, it's entirely premature to assume India will obtain a 5th generation faster than China.

many planes that india induct will have indian components same as su 30mki which makes it the most powerful jet of the su 30 family

Russians build the vast majority of Su-30MKI's components. Even those assembled in India are built with Russian kits. Indian componentts have little to do with it being more advanced than others in its family. India was willing to shell out the extra bucks, so you get what you pay for.

 

[Chanakyaa]

So you are telling me that LCA, still under testing, is superior to JF-17 despite the fact that JF-17 has finished testing for 3 years and is being inducted into Pakistan. I have this paper airplane in testing phrase and it's superior to F-22. Just take my word for it. Where did you find that list? Wikipedia?

No, i never said that Which plane is superior, i only argued that LCA is NOT Third Generation.
Yes, The list was taken from Wikipedia; but if u understand what a Gen 4.5 Fighter Means u'll agree that LCA is definitely a Gen 4 Plane if NOT 4.5.
( The rest of what u said is out of context, never mentioned by me or intended to be debated, atleast in this topic or until u mention otherwise )

Deputy commander of the PLAAF stated that China's 5th gen is 8 to 10 years away from being introduced, so I don't know why you keep on saying China will lag behind for 5 years without basis. Every year since 2006, Russian have stated that their PAK-FA will fly. Yet as we enter 2010 and still nothing. Given the pattern, I'd say Russians will break their 2010 promoise too.

Scenario 1 ::
The commander says he's 10 years from Induction when the prototype is NOT ready, we donnt even know wht it is like..a F22 , a F35 or ...

Scenario 2::
PAK-FA is ready yet the Flight is getting delayed and its expected to enter the service in 2017-2020.

Statement vs Statement ::

Russian Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin was quoted by Russian news agencies that the development stage of the PAK FA program is now complete and construction of the first aircraft for flight testing will now begin.[10]. Alexander Zelin also said that by 2009 there will be three (3) fifth-generation aircraft ready. "All of them are currently undergoing tests and are more or less ready", - he said. Though three prototypes were planned to have been produced by 2009 recent conferences and briefings have shown that no prototype had been produced by the original date disclosed by Zelin.[11]

In scenario 1, The Country is dependent for a majority of its Fighter Planes on Russia.
Russians are in Business for a much longer period with required technology and base.
The PLAAF Front line Su30 MKM is from Russia.

I agree Russians Can delay and China has the potential.
Yet having said this , Plz tell me which Scenario is More Realistic to You ??
At one side the The prototype is ready with 3 machines nearing completion on the other NOT EVEN ONE is ready . Russians claim that from here they need 7-10 Years for Induction from the from First Flight ; How can China Go faster ?
Mind it - F22 is Not a Joke.

My assertion of 5 Year Lag is on This basis :
Case 1 :: F22 Raptor
RPF : 1986
First Flight : 1991
Introduction : 2005
The Delay from First Flight to Introduction = 14 Years.

PAK FA ::
Concept : 1985-1990
First Flight : 2010
Delay = 10-12 Years.

So you can see if China Tests the prototype it can induct at the same time as PAK-FA , in 2017+
But IMO its quite safe to assume that China needs 5 years from today for design and then 10 Years for Induction.

This is the US Estimate ::

The U.S. Department of Defense expects China to have a handful of fifth generation fighters in service between 2020 and 2025, according to statements made by U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates in July 2009.[4]

India will start receiving FGFA by 2017. Though plans are for as early as 2015, as quoted by Indian Defense Minister.
China will et in 2020-2025 = Gap of 5+ Years.

So you are telling me that never mind the fact that LCA still hasn't enter service or requires heavy foreign assistance, India will experience a sudden great leap forward in technology that allows them to produce an indigenious 5th generation aircraft.

Sorry if I don't buy into that story. You guys didn't exactly have a stellar history when it comes to weapon development, i.e Arjun and LCA.

LCA has fired weapons, gas passed 1000 flight tests. LCA is Live.
I never said INDIA IS BUILDING Gen 5 Plane ALONE, I only REFUTE to ur statement that India is ONLY providing Money - We are having Cooperation in FGFA Development thats the reason why we r not buying PAK_FA.

Dony Buy what i Didnt say.
Often, I only say, what u cant deny to Buy.

LCA is NOT superior to JF17 = Agreed
LCA is Gen 3 = Disagreed and False

India is NOT making Gen 5 Plane = Agreed [ Excluding MCA ]
India is ONLY Supplying Money for PAK-FA = Disagree and False.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Dhakan...we already going to have 20 - 22 (PAF already hav 12 acc to news reports) by the end of this year (1st Sqd).

If we say 25 AC per year....then from 2010 to 2020 surely we would be having 300 AC. But I feel ,in later years PAF would increase ratio of productivity as they get stong hand's on experience.

30 A/C per year is NOT a Joke.

Final assembly of the JF-17 in Pakistan began on 30 June 2009, with PAC expected to complete production of 4-6 aircraft before the end of the year. PAC then plans to produce 12 aircraft in 2010 and 15-16 aircraft per year from 2011. This may eventually be increased to 25 aircraft per year

Even May Be says 25.

I didnt doubt the Numbers i doubt the Unrealistic RATE OF PRODUCTION.
Thank You.

 

[Chanakyaa]

So you are telling me that LCA MKII is coming, despite that the original isn't even in service. That would be similar to China developing the J-10B without the J-10 ever being finished. You just simply can't have great leap forward in technology like that.


J-XX is due to fly in the next two years and enter operational service around 2020, according to military official.
The Russians on the other hand, said PAK-FA will fly every year since 2006. They have been unable to keep their promise each time due to money constraints. Given this pattern, it's entirely premature to assume India will obtain a 5th generation faster than China.


Russians build the vast majority of Su-30MKI's components. Even those assembled in India are built with Russian kits. Indian componentts have little to do with it being more advanced than others in its family. India was willing to shell out the extra bucks, so you get what you pay for.

Very True and Sensible.
Thanks for that 2 Years estimate of JXX .
If That is True then yes China may go hand in hand with India.

Regarding PAK-FA, Officially Sukhoi presented the Single seat version to IAF, since IAF and Indian engineers were not interested to Only PAY and GET, Like MKI, They wanted a real share in design and development.
So another aspect of a second seater was Deliberately added so that the redesigned plane will have some share of Indian Engineers plane as well that my help in MCA design .

MKI of cource is having some Indian Parts ( Softwares and some Avionics) with 90% being foreign.

The MKI's airframe is a development of the Russian Su-27 while most of the avionics were developed by India.

Btw, Any Official news of JXX ??

 

[Chanakyaa]

You can never convince two people, an Indian and a Jew

If every one was so convinced why This Forum ?
Forum=Debate=convinced/unconvinced.

You see being convinced is against the Law of Good Discussion/Debate.
Its good to be unconvinced.. at least if u feel u r right.
Other wise you only see .. Yes Yes.... but Life is made of Yes and No.. Black n White.. Day n NIght.

Dont u think every Human gets unconvinced of a "Unacceptable" state ?
The state can be a "statement" or an Act.. whatever.
So Its NOT Jews or Indian.. Its a Human Nature,

Provided you dont get offended if an Indian says JF17 is Mig 21 or Gauri Missile is North Korean ... and you will NOT make a counter argument to prove that His Info is wrong.

Every Human is in convenience when his Pride Hurts..
Provide you have a Pride.
Indians definitely Have.

Do u disagree my assertion ?

 

[chantpapipart2]

So you are telling me that LCA MKII is coming, despite that the original isn't even in service. That would be similar to China developing the J-10B without the J-10 ever being finished. You just simply can't have great leap forward in technology like that.


J-XX is due to fly in the next two years and enter operational service around 2020, according to military official. The Russians on the other hand, said PAK-FA will fly every year since 2006. They have been unable to keep their promise each time due to money constraints. Given this pattern, it's entirely premature to assume India will obtain a 5th generation faster than China.


Russians build the vast majority of Su-30MKI's components. Even those assembled in India are built with Russian kits. Indian componentts have little to do with it being more advanced than others in its family. India was willing to shell out the extra bucks, so you get what you pay for.

What about JF 17 ???? You are saying as if Pakistan has developed that mid tech fighter on its own. What is PAK contribution in that?

 

[SekrutYakhni]

No Bro...
We would be having

300 - JF-17 (50 Bomber, 150 Multirole, 50 Navy)
150 - J-10
72 to 80 - F-16 (PAF planning to buy used F-16)
60 to 80 - Mirage 3 (All will be given to Navy)
80 - Mirage ROSE Upgraded
55 - F-7 (Only F-7PG remains in service)
** - ??? (There might be one more 4.5th AC, depends on economy)

As I told this thing before..
We will also have different aircraft in our inventory...
You are right....

 

[emotionless_teenage]

btw to whoever that point out aircraft generation as a mark of technological advance need to check his fact back

it is only true up to certain point.a 4.5 generation aircraft is an aircraft that either based from 4th gen aircraft(developed in 70s for requirement in 80s,but being upgraded for current need,like F-15K/SG/SE,F-16 block52/52+/60,Su-30MKM/I/K/A).or new aircraft (developed in the 80s for requirement in the nineties/beyond,like typhoon,rafale and gripen)

LCA, JF-17,F-16 block 50 and J-10 belong to the same generation but their capability differ significantly,mainly due to their requirement and doctrine(i wouldn't want to comment more on 'which is the best' because this will cause unnecessary shytstorm.pointing to the misinformation is enough here)

 

[S10]

No, i never said that Which plane is superior, i only argued that LCA is NOT Third Generation.
Yes, The list was taken from Wikipedia; but if u understand what a Gen 4.5 Fighter Means u'll agree that LCA is definitely a Gen 4 Plane if NOT 4.5.
( The rest of what u said is out of context, never mentioned by me or intended to be debated, atleast in this topic or until u mention otherwise )

It seems your confusion started from the classification of fighter generations. In China, the fighters are divided into 4 generations while US and Russia use 5 generation system. J-10 and J-11 are both grouped into 3rd generation in China. So when somebody mentioned LCA is 3rd gen in China, it effectively means 4th in Russian or American terms.

Scenario 1 ::
The commander says he's 10 years from Induction when the prototype is NOT ready, we donnt even know wht it is like..a F22 , a F35 or ...

Scenario 2::
PAK-FA is ready yet the Flight is getting delayed and its expected to enter the service in 2017-2020.

Statement vs Statement ::


In scenario 1, The Country is dependent for a majority of its Fighter Planes on Russia.
Russians are in Business for a much longer period with required technology and base.
The PLAAF Front line Su30 MKM is from Russia.

I agree Russians Can delay and China has the potential.
Yet having said this , Plz tell me which Scenario is More Realistic to You ??
At one side the The prototype is ready with 3 machines nearing completion on the other NOT EVEN ONE is ready . Russians claim that from here they need 7-10 Years for Induction from the from First Flight ; How can China Go faster ?
Mind it - F22 is Not a Joke.

You entire reasoning is based on the fact that Russia claims their PAK-FA will fly. They have been saying it will every year since 2006, and each time they failed to back up their promise. It's been several years and still not a sign of any development. Given that track record, it's completely unrealistic to expect them to sudden keep their 2010 first flight promise.

My assertion of 5 Year Lag is on This basis :
Case 1 :: F22 Raptor
RPF : 1986
First Flight : 1991
Introduction : 2005
The Delay from First Flight to Introduction = 14 Years.

PAK FA ::
Concept : 1985-1990
First Flight : 2010
Delay = 10-12 Years.

First it was 2006. Next it was 2007, then came 2008. They couldn't do it in 2009 and now they're saying 2010. You sure put alot of faith in the Russians given that history.

So you can see if China Tests the prototype it can induct at the same time as PAK-FA , in 2017+
But IMO its quite safe to assume that China needs 5 years from today for design and then 10 Years for Induction.

Where have you been? Mars? Design work on J-XX has already concluded by early 2009 and they're moving into prototype manufacturing stage now.

It's all in the interview of the air force deputy commander:
http://news.qq.com/a/20091109/000873.htm

 

[S10]

What about JF 17 ???? You are saying as if Pakistan has developed that mid tech fighter on its own. What is PAK contribution in that?

China did the vast majority of the development. That is never a secret. Pakistan informed China what kind of plane they wanted and they received one. The funding was divided up 50/50. After, Pakistan gets to produce it when China transfers the technology. I don't think even the Pakistanis will say they developed JF-17. There's nothing wrong with that. Pakistan gets to make its own planes and China gets a plane it can export.

Now in what capacity can Indians contribute to the PAK-FA program that Russians are already not ahead of you in? I don't mean to put you down, but it's a realistic question.

 

[lockh33d]

No, i never said that Which plane is superior, i only argued that LCA is NOT Third Generation.
Yes, The list was taken from Wikipedia; but if u understand what a Gen 4.5 Fighter Means u'll agree that LCA is definitely a Gen 4 Plane if NOT 4.5.
( The rest of what u said is out of context, never mentioned by me or intended to be debated, atleast in this topic or until u mention otherwise )



Scenario 1 ::
The commander says he's 10 years from Induction when the prototype is NOT ready, we donnt even know wht it is like..a F22 , a F35 or ...

Scenario 2::
PAK-FA is ready yet the Flight is getting delayed and its expected to enter the service in 2017-2020.

Statement vs Statement ::


In scenario 1, The Country is dependent for a majority of its Fighter Planes on Russia.
Russians are in Business for a much longer period with required technology and base.
The PLAAF Front line Su30 MKM is from Russia.

I agree Russians Can delay and China has the potential.
Yet having said this , Plz tell me which Scenario is More Realistic to You ??
At one side the The prototype is ready with 3 machines nearing completion on the other NOT EVEN ONE is ready . Russians claim that from here they need 7-10 Years for Induction from the from First Flight ; How can China Go faster ?
Mind it - F22 is Not a Joke.

My assertion of 5 Year Lag is on This basis :
Case 1 :: F22 Raptor
RPF : 1986
First Flight : 1991
Introduction : 2005
The Delay from First Flight to Introduction = 14 Years.

PAK FA ::
Concept : 1985-1990
First Flight : 2010
Delay = 10-12 Years.

So you can see if China Tests the prototype it can induct at the same time as PAK-FA , in 2017+
But IMO its quite safe to assume that China needs 5 years from today for design and then 10 Years for Induction.

This is the US Estimate ::


India will start receiving FGFA by 2017. Though plans are for as early as 2015, as quoted by Indian Defense Minister.
China will et in 2020-2025 = Gap of 5+ Years.



LCA has fired weapons, gas passed 1000 flight tests. LCA is Live.
I never said INDIA IS BUILDING Gen 5 Plane ALONE, I only REFUTE to ur statement that India is ONLY providing Money - We are having Cooperation in FGFA Development thats the reason why we r not buying PAK_FA.

Dony Buy what i Didnt say.
Often, I only say, what u cant deny to Buy.

LCA is NOT superior to JF17 = Agreed
LCA is Gen 3 = Disagreed and False

India is NOT making Gen 5 Plane = Agreed [ Excluding MCA ]
India is ONLY Supplying Money for PAK-FA = Disagree and False.

First off, the J-XX proto is ready to fly, as he said in the interviews. I heard it for myself in the video, so are you saying I'm a retard? Hence, why the 2020-2025 gap?

Secondly, I think that gap fits the PAK-FA better, with prototypes delayed by 5 years already. Hence, I think it's safe to bet that the FGFA would enter service after 2025.

Thirdly, Indian funds+Russian ingenuity=PAK-FA

 

[applesauce]

First off, the J-XX proto is ready to fly, as he said in the interviews. I heard it for myself in the video, so are you saying I'm a retard? Hence, why the 2020-2025 gap?

Secondly, I think that gap fits the PAK-FA better, with prototypes delayed by 5 years already. Hence, I think it's safe to bet that the FGFA would enter service after 2025.

Thirdly, Indian funds+Russian ingenuity=PAK-FA

yes in the video he says the plane will fly soon and that it will be inducted in 8-10, that is not testing, its actual induction into service. the PAK-FA however have been delayed again and again causing us to question their deadline they set. if anything the fak-fa will be the plane that is inducted after 2020