Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[Munir]

Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.

 

[Basel]

What kind of structural upgrades are available in market for F-16s, some where i had read that their life can be extended due to the material used in them, is it true?

USAF is also going to upgrade their F-16s and some special structural upgrade they will go through, will they allow these kind of upgrade to our planes in future??

 

[Munir]

structural life f16 is 8000 hours but the plane became heavier and used rougher
Falcon up is extending that 5500 max life to 8000 for the basic F16...
then there was something in between with MLU4 or 5 that did internal upgrade of the structure to keep that 8000 hours in mind but one had to remove the falcon up first (plane became more heavier used in operational status)...
and not you will get SLEP upgrade that extends it to 10.000-12.000

I hope that settles it.

 

[rockstar08]

Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.

sir jee after MLU kits , aren't they becoming block 40 ? just a question

 

[Munir]

You have MLU1,2,3,4,5... One can ask for block 50/52 (engine difference) specific parts hence upgrade towards that block.

 

[aliyusuf]

sir jee after MLU kits , aren't they becoming block 40 ? just a question

The details of the MLU components for the PAF F-16A/B Block-15 are copy pasted below from ...
Link: Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

This clearly shows that the PAF F-16AMs/BMs will be similar to the F-16C/D Block-52s w.r.t. Radar, JHMCS, Missiles etc.
However the Block-52s will remain superior in terms of Range, Payload, Engine Power, Loitering Time and CFTs.

The copy pasted stuff ...

Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion
According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B

MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

• APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar (option for cheaper less capable APG-66-2 is also available)
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
• AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
• AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
• Have Quick I/II Radios
• Link-16
  
  Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
• SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
• Reconnaissance pod capability
• Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
• MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
• 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
• 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
• 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
• 10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
• Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
  
  The principal contractors will be:
  
• BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
• Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
• Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
• Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
• Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
  

Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million
The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

14 F100-PW-220E engines

• 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
• De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
• Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.

The principal contractors will be:

• Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
• United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.

 

[krash]

But shouldn't an organization as sanctioned as the PAF be the best person to appreciate the possibility of acquiring as many F-16s as we could and having them MLUed in addition to going for the Block 52s as a matter of prudence as and when the first window of opportunity opened up ?

But why would they when they had the option of buying new ones. If they were supposed to arrange say a total of 100 F-16s, had the money and the US favour, none of us would have wanted them to go for used birds and neither would have they. Remember the initial intent of 77(?) F-16s. Then A happened and it became 36 then B happened and it became 18. Then C happened and the J-10s went out the window and now we had no money so we started to look for used birds.

Remember that PAF could not have just kept on adding birds from all sides, we had (and still have) a specific number in mind, no more no less.

 

[Donatello]

Indeed even a not so good plane can be used in a way to make the team better. F16's can handle awful lot of ordnance... But air defense fighter is not suited for surgical strikes. No lantirn/Sniper pod. I expect 13 MLU kits to be ordered very soon. Imagine what 13 MLU'ed jets (block52) can do.

Didn't they order 60kits back in 2005/06? If yes, then those should be enough. Would need to check these aircraft in Pakistan and send them to TAI when the remaining MLUs arrive from there.

 

[krash]

Hi,

You can do that one or two times---won't happen after that.

Now if the opponent has aesa radar---regardless of what you do----as close you may fly---it can find out what type of engine you have and and then co-relate it to the type of aircraft---thus displaying the number of aircrafts coming at you.

In low flight---the ground clutter---the heat arising out of the ground can confuse a radar or a missile.

Of course, I was just pointing out that we can never count out the very basics, even if it were for just one very improbable situation.

 

[BATMAN]

No doubt, subject F-16's are too old.... they were given to RJAF out of a US junk yard.
I wonder, how PAF would keep them airworthy........ spares!

I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.

Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!

Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52, in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.

In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.

 

[MastanKhan]

I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.

Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!

Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52, in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.

In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.

Hi,

These aircraft are of perfect use for ground strike missions---. For dedicated ground strike missions---at times you don't even carry any missiles---just the weapons load---.

These aircraft will free up the better equipped aicraft for other jobs.

The JF 17 is not a close match to BLK 52---. For the purpose that the paf would want to use these F16's, they are already built and equipped for it.

If we dig any more into it----it would be like reading into TEA LEAVES.

If there were a 100 of these aircraft available with similar capabilities and similar price range---each one of them would be well worth for the job that would be needed to be done.

Spares are no issue with this aircraft---. Not all aircraft are needed to be BVR capable---because for ground strike missions---they won't be carrying the BVR's.

It is just like having a dirt bike and a multi purpose SUV---.

 

[Viper 94]

so PAF had 40 f-16s originally
then came 14 from the US that were embargoed +13 from Jordan
and the 18 Block 52+
that makes a total of 85 F-16s in PAF according to my calculation

 

[BATMAN]

Hello,

These aircraft are of perfect use for ground strike missions---. For dedicated ground strike missions---at times you don't even carry any missiles---just the weapons load---.

mean... close support mission!
otherwise for precision strikes they would need targeting pods, which again translates to upgrade. this is how i understand, but you may correct any time.

The JF 17 is not a close match to BLK 52

I meant comparing in air defence role.... and further i don't dig.

 

[elitepilot09]

I said it before, i say it again 'Spares' is the key word to keep these frames airworthy, and we are not aware of any spare 'spares' via public media.

Considering its longer range, i guess they would be used to carry strategic weapons, for which PAF can modify them locally, or close ground support, or training!

Considering, that JF-17 is a close match to F-16 blk-52, in air defence role and far exceed these birds in capability, life and reliability.... IMO, it was overall stupid move to waste precious forex.

In today's world, fighter plane without BVR and EW suite is only good for a kamikazi mission.

With all due respect, you're comparing a platform that has seen service with more than 20 nations around the world, is 40 odd years in maturity and seen action with a handul of countries of which we are a part... to one that has only been in service for 4 years, has seen no major conflict apart from bombing runs in KPK and only has 1 operator.

I am not taking anything away from the JF17, but one would be very naive to say that it has more "reliability."

As for your comment abount kamikazi nonsense, you are ill informed and the ADF F-16's are infact capable of being armed with AMRAAMs in tandem with their APG-66 radars.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello,



mean... close support mission!
otherwise for precision strikes they would need targeting pods, which again translates to upgrade. this is how i understand, but you may correct any time.


I meant comparing in air defence role.... and further i don't dig.

Hi,

You are right---. I think the first priority was to get these aircraft on the ground in pakistan---once you have them---then you can do so many things to them. Wasn't our first batch the most basic as well---and these aircaft maybe morre advanced than them.

These aircraft are 10 times their worth at this time---because they have freed up our better equipped F16's.