Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[Munir]

There is no issue with copyright issues. We can not afford decent second hand F16's. AMARG is filled with maybe thousands of F16's... Many nations would love to sell theirs MLU 5 F16's... We rather buy something that nobody wants for cheaper then scrap price and then turn them into operational planes thanks to cheap labor. The parts are just bought on the commercial market. E.q. Belgium has huge number of parts for sale... (smile). The only wrong part of the presentation is that right ow these planes are super duper... That is clearly not the reality.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.

If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...

3000 hrs on the airfame and you're talking of them as spares ???

I think that they'll be undergoing MLU pretty soon.

 

[Munir]

3000 hrs on the airfame and you're talking of them as spares ???

I think that they'll be undergoing MLU pretty soon.

Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?

surely not but i'm against using them as spare parts.

 

[elitepilot09]

Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.

If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...

I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain.

1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.

2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.

3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU.

4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "Air Defence Fighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier.

5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range and our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.

6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.

I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.

 

[Munir]

I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain.

1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.

2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.

3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU.

4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "Air Defence Fighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier.

5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range and our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.

6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.

I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.

-If you have links then you use each others radar...
-Links with Erieye/ground radar
-BVR are seldom used at max range... 2/3...
-modern ecm with DRFM can do the same to any modern radar... Even AESA. BVR is not 100% perfect!

etc. Hope that answers a part of your questions

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

I believe that you, as well as a few others here, are candy-coating the fully capabilities and performance of these fighters. As Pakistanis, anything F-16 will make us happy but I believe we were better off without these planes as they will turn into nightmares in 5-6 years. Before you shoot me down, please allow me to explain.

1. For Gods sake, the planes have been so belittled that apparently, flying (you know, that thing that planes are meant to do) from one country to another is seen as a major achievement of some sort. If it is indeed true that the planes have only 3,000 hours left on them, they will be expended in 5-6 years time and we'll see a maintenance nightmare.

2. You say that this procurement is "surely a good deal", but in the very next paragraph you insist that IF the plane gets a new radar, new weapons capabilities, a new cockpit and a new engine, then it's an asset... So you're practically looking for a "new" plane of some sort? The only logical overhaul which can provide all that is an MLU, and I don't think these will be MLU'ed anytime soon since we're still in the process of upgrading our current fleet.

3. And yes, just so it's clear, these planes have not gone through the MLU.

4. The very thing that this plane is meant for - "Air Defence Fighter" - it cannot do better than our current fleet because the ADFs are equipped with the APG-66 (as opposed to the APG-68 of the F-16AM/BM or the APG-68v9 of the Blk 52). The APG-66 has a SUBSTANITALLY lesser range than the other 2 radars mentioned, it is more susceptible to the new forms of complex EW that our enemies employ and can be jammed realitively easier.

5. Sure, it can be equipped with AIM-120, but it cannot make better use of that missile since it can only see hardly 80 km infront of it. The F-16AM/BM and it's APG 68 radar can scan for nearly 130 km. On that note, the AIM-120 C-5 which Pakistan possesses has a range of 105 km... meaning that these ADF F-16's cannot take full advantage of that missile range and our pilots have to further risk their lives to move closer to the enemy in a BVR scenario in order to launch the missile. I understand that some BVR capability is better than nothing... but that sort of mentality is not gonna get us anywhere when our adversary has 200+ SU-30's literally 'mini-awacs' radars.

6. Atleast 3 Jordanian F-16's have crashed in the last 2 years if I'm not mistaken. And one of those was in in January of this year.

I would love to believe that this was a great aquisition for us, but until these planes go through MLU, they will trouble us.

You do not belong here dude ..... or start lying

 

[SQ8]

ot about the work-ethics and resourcefulness of the PAF in squeezing anything from better-than-expected (as in the case of the F-6s) to something exemplary (as in the case of the Mirages) out of seemingly unfavorable odds; keeping that in mind, how much do you think can we realistically hope to better these bargain-purchased F-16s without infringing upon any copyright issues ?

Depends on the life left in these airframe. They have already had their service life extended one so more of that may be quite difficult. Adding a MLU may be possible but that then depends on whether it will be cost effective vis-a-vis the remaining life of these airframe.

They are good for Air Defence duties and will do fine there.

 

[VelocuR]

I don't know for sure, but I think Saudi involved to pay few million dollars for these aging F-16A/B since Jordan/Saudi are closer relationship. That's why PAF officers look so happy and exciting!

 

[Informant]

Would you risk sending an almost falling apart ADF while you could send Jf17 with BVR?

Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?

 

[kaykay]

Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?

Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.

 

[Informant]

Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.

Sure keep believing that, all the planes will go through the process of MLU. This takes time and it will be done.

 

[kaykay]

Sure keep believing that, all the planes will go through the process of MLU. This takes time and it will be done.

Believing what? I am simply saying that travelling lost distances are no issue for even oldies like Jaguars let alone F-16s.

 

[Windjammer]

Sorry but even oldies like Indian Jaguars have travelled almost 2000+ km distance all the way from Gorakhpur, UP to Oman for exercises in past. Distance is no issue here.

Two things, firstly it's over 2000 miles not km, secondly the safety of twin engine is always a factor.

Direct 2000 miles plus distance isnt travelled by almost falling apart planes. Who made you a think tank?

I would request you not to question his credibility, @Munir is a highly respected member and a professional for that matter.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Windjammer saheb, I think for 5 mil USD a plane it is amazing. 3000 hours to go. A few extra spares to do only ADF when the rest can sit safely in the hangars.We know block 15 inside out. We can improve the planes. Surely a good deal. The capabilities are not impressive at the moment when you compare to anything on the India side. I do not think these planes make a chance.

If they get a new radar, new weapon capabilities, new cockpit and new PW 220E then I think we can see it as a real asset. Till then nice spares. Looking at the status these planes will need a lot of TLC from the Pakistani engineers. I mean every purza needs to be checked and surely a lot of parts need to be replaced. Someone said that flying to Pakistan was a big achievement. I fully agree. I would not risk pilots doing that. We do have talented pilots but you do remember that USAF pilots refused to fly planes from Portugese island to the USA cause it had expired main igniter? These planes have expired everything. Only the pilot is fine...

sir u sure about 5 mil a plane that is 65 for all 13. That's damm TOO LOW! i would say scrap jf-17 and buy used F-16 in large no's and replace all mirages and f-7.....about 100-150 more..... u will get urself an airforce second to none in less than a billion bucks....