Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[araz]

You are right and Mark is right in his assessment as well. Whether US gives us more F-16s or not, is just no longer the main aim of PAF. We already have JF-17s that offer similar capability, and USA cannot do anything in that regard. As long as China and Russia are willing to supply arms, USA is not even in the equation.

The thing is, that recently USA has realized the huge animosity against it's interests in Pakistan. Hence you see all those USAID advertisements on the tv and the USA so called 'winning the hearts' of the tribal people, people in cities. People like us, who are educated and live abroad. They know that they cannot lose Pakistan. Certainly not, after they learned that in Iran. You don't want an ally who is willing to work with you to go against your interests in the region. If that calls for giving Pakistan F-16s, they will do it.

Now, if Pakistan can come up with 3 billion USD for 36 new BLK52 F-16s, and dangle it like a carrot in front of the manufacturer like Lockheed, you think the USA is going to say no?

Just offer the cash to the US Arms industry and they will do the hard part for you: Lobby in the US congress.

Each F-16 Pakistan buys or upgrades secures jobs for US citizens. They don't give a rat's arse about India vs Pakistan. They want as much orders flowing so they can keep earning.

Our problem is cash. US is already on good relationship with Pakistan and they don't want to deteriorate the situation.

I think PAF should exercise more options for used/MLU-ed f-16s. But question is, where will they come from? Europe???



Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.

India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?

A very comprehensive and good post. If I remember correctly the option of 18 more 52s is still on the table and canbe exercised. I suspect if PAF wants to increase its fire power rapidly F16s is the logical way to go.Jfts are coming but establishing the infrastructure is taking time. At this time PAFs thinking seems confusing. They want the 16s but dont want the threat of sanctions and have given input into J10bs but are either delaying or cancelling that option altogether. If we go solely with the 16s how much "independence" will we have and do we know that sanctions will not be imposed on us. secondly if we want tk have a 2 tier system how do we look at the J10Bs. This is the conundrum I cant solve at the moment . However if money was not an consideration I would exercise the option of 18 more 52s and wriggle 36 bl 32/42 off of US and upgrade the whole lot to bl 52 standard. I would drop the j10 and wait for the chinese 5th generation offer.
Araz

I wasn't doubting the fact this is a significant increase in the PAF's fleet, this represents something like a 20% increase in your top-end strike fleet which isn't a bad month for any air force. All I was challenging was the point that this changes the balance of power in the region- that is all.



I'd hate to break your delusions but the fact something is second-hand IS relevant, you can't just ignore this fact. Seen as you brought up the Vikramditya let me use this analogy also and put aside that something like 75-80% of this ship is new (these ex-Jordainian F-16s won't see anywhere near as much work done on them but that is neither here nor there).I'm not going to try and make out the Viky's age has no affect on its overall capacities and that its age means nothing. The age of the ship means:

a) it cost a significant amount of $$$ to bring it up to a somewhat contemporary level (the Jordanian F-16s face the same issue)

b) Given the advances in designs and technology it will never be as capable as a new build contemporary product (see IAC-
Anyway all the best to you chaps and your new purchases.

Pakistan has never sought a change in the balance of power. That cor us would be crippling and a sheer stupidity. What we have always sought is credible deterrance.if by your own account we have in a month increased our top line fighter power by 20% then dont you think the deterrance level has gone up by20% as well which in any book is a big boost.
You have also tried to go on a tangent about second hand products being not as effective and given argume ts while Cleverly highlighting that your ship is 75--80% new. I will humbly point out thatwe dont have the same luxury of cash reserves which aee at your disposal. We are cash deprived and need to mount a defence with whatever we can procure within and sometimes where absolutely necessaryjumping out of our skins to gather whatever we can.For us even second hand ideal. These platforms have 3000hrs of life left on them and are therefore good for12-15 yrs. The world at its current pace will have moved tremendously in 15yrs and the instruments of war will change. We dont need a product for 30yrs we will hope to develop indigenous products by that time and fulfill that deficiency by that time. So it works ideally for us but then you would not understand this because your ethos isddifferent.
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.

Hi MK,
Those would require overhaul as minimum and further to integrate into PAF's smart airforce, they would require MLU.
Since 2006, we are trying to MLU our existing c.a. 40 F-16, and yet have not achieved half the goal!
Thanks to multiple bills of US senators,every military scrap requested by Pakistan, have to win US parliamnet's permission, which is primarily a hindu lobby.
A new or relatively new F-16 is fine but the F-16 we are getting, have to go long long way to be practically operational in PAF.
So all the advantages of F-16 over JF-17... i.e. primarily range and load is a very very slow gain and small multiplier in the equation.
Where as, we produce, on average 2 JFT / month, we need those more desperately, to replace our previous junk, which has turned PAF into a flying museum.

 

[araz]

I hope you guys won't make the same mistake like the past. In other words, stock up on F-16's when it will become obsolete. Just like you have F-7's and Mirages right now. In the past, India didn't have top line jets so it worked out to have Farmers, F-7 and older Mirages. Going forward, India is moving ahead with massive plans for 5th Gen and other top line jets like Rafale. So the PAF will need to have some deterrence in place. I know the financial situation and all. But strategy is a strategy and when you are arch enemies, you have got to keep up to some degree. I think a few squadrons of twin turbines and a couple of stealth in the next 5-7 years are a must have. Otherwise, the gap will go huge when India starts to get Rafale and T-50 types of jets

I thino the strategy seems to be to procure 16s to the amount that was orivinally planned and we have infrastructure for(max 110-120). Beyond that we wait and develop the JFT which to my and other members surprise is said to have more upgrade potential than J10 ( dont ask me why this has been said). We dont have anywhere to go for procurement other than China. So we will bide our time and react to the situation as it arises. The PAF high command has plan B and C sorted but the problem is lack of resources and even technology present with the provider. That is likely to improve and so should our supplies . The cash situation probably will remain dire. God I love my country!!!!
Araz

 

[PhoneyMember]

PAF may have got these for BVR capability and good price.These are old F-16 which never went for MLU.
Look down shoot down radar and full fledged night mission capability may be other good reasons?

 

[SQ8]

Please, read my post # 304

That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?

 

[PhoneyMember]

That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?

Only peace falcon one and two were ADF converted.

 

[BATMAN]

That lists the day they were delivered to Jordon.. not their date of manufacture as you claimed to be 1997(assuming your typing 1979 was a typo). Nor does it show which of the lot.. peace falcon I or II is the one Pakistan is buying. Do you have that information?

I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
If those were deliverd to Jorday in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.

The Royal Jordanian Air Force operates a total of 64 F-16A/B aircraft, 16 of which are ADFs, while the remaining 39 are MLUs or have been modified to MLU standard.

 

[PhoneyMember]

I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
If those were deliverd to US in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.

Serial number 671-686 F-16A and #670 F-16B
These serial numbers were ADF and were delivered in 2003.
Pakistan is getting their falcons from this batch.

 

[Superboy]

PAF needs at least 100 F-16 / J-10 as its hi and at least 200 JF-17 as its lo.

 

[That Guy]

This new move is against the PAF's proposed policy of maintaining a technical edge (or parity ) against numerical superiority of IAF.. That is PAF must required new platforms like J10 against IAF's aggressive modernisation..
Mirage 2k upgrading to Mirage 2000-5 mk2 std(top end varient of m2k)..
Mig 29s to Mig 29SMT/UPG (Top end varient of mig 29)..
Let alone su30mki, super su,rafel etc..
The problem here is the new acquisition eliminates the possibility of new platforms in Paf near future.. Because the buying of old f16s save some initial capital but requires massive upgrades and high maintanance cost..

The thing is that newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has, even the Su-30s, so it's still a good purchase. We also shouldn't forget that India has yet to induct a single Rafale, which is why PAF was even thinking of buying the J-10. Considering recent developments, it's a decent choice.

Though, I DO agree with you when you suggest that PAF needs to start looking towards newer crafts. India isn't going to keep it's fleet as it is, and is actively looking to get better systems in it's fleet. If PAF doesn't preempt those purchases, it's going to fall behind rapidly.

 

[Alphacharlie]

The thing is that newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has, even the Su-30s, so it's still a good purchase. We also shouldn't forget that India has yet to induct a single Rafale, which is why PAF was even thinking of buying the J-10. Considering recent developments, it's a decent choice.

Though, I DO agree with you when you suggest that PAF needs to start looking towards newer crafts. India isn't going to keep it's fleet as it is, and is actively looking to get better systems in it's fleet. If PAF doesn't preempt those purchases, it's going to fall behind rapidly.

newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has.........

PERFECT EXAMPLE - TONGUE IN CHEEK STATEMENT.

CHEERS.

 

[PhoneyMember]

newer F-16s are still quite a formidable opponent to everything India has.........

PERFECT EXAMPLE - TONGUE & CHEEK STATEMENT.

CHEERS.

Indian Air force's supremacy in numbers and aircraft quality is nothing new.Has been there since day one.
But for some reason it hasn't done much favor to India,or we had seen IAF conducting surgical strikes every few months.
India is not Israel and Pakistan is not Palestine.

 

[fatman17]

100 F-16s MLU'd, multi-role is a force to be reckoned with. if the financial situation wasnt that critical, this target would have been achieved by now. to have reached 76 under such conditions says a lot about the PAF's ability to ensure that minimum deterrance is available. a F-16 has been built for 8,000 hours. thats quite a lifetime.

 

[Quwa]

Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda

US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it

Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members

The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions

Kashmir is on the agenda. Resolving it sits squarely with US interests in Afghanistan and the wider region. So long as India and Pakistan view Kashmir as part of their vital interests, the two will continue committing resources and fuelling tension. Fighting for Kashmir is only a matter of when, not an 'if.' To diffuse that the US needs the issue resolved, i.e. Indo-Pak ties normalized and Kashmir put to the side, for both countries.

fatman,

I think the PAF will end up with over 100 F-16 MLUs, it's only a matter of time. The real question for me is how many C/Ds it'll get its hands on over the next few years. The Block-50/52+ line will be in production for a few more years and there are loads of surplus/excess units about.

 

[SQ8]

I know, didn't i mentioned that those were delivered from US junk yard, also known as grave yard of aircrafts, aka AMARC ?
If those were deliverd to Jorday in 1997 from a grave yard, than certainly they were one of those early models build in early 80's.

No. The AMARC is NOT the Junk yard of aircraft. Its name is Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group
These are the activities it carries out.

There are four categories of storage for planes at AMARG:

• Long Term – Aircraft are kept intact for future use
• Parts Reclamation – Aircraft are kept, picked apart and used for spare parts
• Flying Hold – Aircraft are kept intact for shorter stays than Long Term
• Excess of DoD needs – Aircraft are sold off whole or in parts

Some of the F-16s we received were also AMARG.