Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[MilSpec]

A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.

I hope you are right, but do remember PAF's mirage 3 collection spree and how successful they were at doing this. My apprehensions are
1> Policy shift in DC towards pakistan
2> India degradation in strategic equation in the region, w.r.t. US's china policy
3> Influx of additional f16's to pakistan.

Irrespective of the tactical significance (which itself is quite a bit), GoI needs to be proactive and deal accordingly. During arrival of f16's we were reactionary, I hope this time around due diligence is carried out thoroughly to negate the worst case scnario's beforehand. That means speeding up the procurement as well as development models.

 

[aziqbal]

Pakistan F16 is comprised of the following

31 original Peace gate I/II are operational along with 14 delivered after 9/11

Add to this the new 18 x F16 C/D that's 63 x F16 in PAF

We are still owed 14 x F16 MLU and can excercise additional new 18 x F16 C/D to make 77 or 95 total F16

However I don't believe we will see the latter

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I think you are reading too much into my Screen Name.

nah.. ive read a few of your posts.... hint "glad"...

Just like I know you are not a fighter and I doubt you have been to the Desert

Yeah.. A guy from Baluchistan who has never been to the desert..

 

[Quwa]

I hope you are right, but do remember PAF's mirage 3 collection spree and how successful they were at doing this. My apprehensions are
1> Policy shift in DC towards pakistan
2> India degradation in strategic equation in the region, w.r.t. US's china policy
3> Influx of additional f16's to pakistan.

Irrespective of the tactical significance (which itself is quite a bit), GoI needs to be proactive and deal accordingly. During arrival of f16's we were reactionary, I hope this time around due diligence is carried out thoroughly to negate the worst case scnario's beforehand. That means speeding up the procurement as well as development models.

The US already has a firm long-term policy plan for South Asia, i.e. to do whatever it takes to maintain a strong presence in Afghanistan/Central Asia and contain China. Part of that plan is to see India and Pakistan normalize ties and put an end to the Kashmir dispute. Resolving Kashmir is absolutely necessary (for US) in that it allows India to fully concentrate on its wider regional aspirations (read: contain China). However, until Kashmir is resolved, there is absolutely NO way the US will do anything to give Pakistan a substantive edge against India. No more F-16s (new or used).

These are the following scenarios I see happening:

1. Kashmir is on track to being resolved and Indo-Pak ties normalized. As a result, the US is now willing to equip Pakistan with as many F-16s and other US equipment as it so wills. If Pakistan's nothing more than India's neighbour, then whatever Pakistan does to increase its capabilities won't mean anything for India.

2. The US may be losing their influence in Pakistan, i.e. the military/security leadership in Pakistan is seriously beginning to contemplate a shift that may position Pakistan against US interests in the region. For starters, this would include a true shift towards supporting China, a surge of *real* problems in Afghanistan, and a belligerent attitude towards India and Iran (thus distracting them from China and Syria, respectively). In order to stop that from happening, the US decided it'd be best to throw some substantive carrots, e.g. F-16s, on the condition that it re-orient Pakistan towards resolving Kashmir and chilling out.

 

[aziqbal]

Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda

US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it

Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members

The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions

 

[Meejee]

Any firm dates for arrival of these Falcons?

 

[Hulk]

A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.

I do not believe in magic, which means that nations do not suddenly get strong or week. I see some people believe on those lines, also we give too much importance to US influence and its changing intentions. Even when we were not in good terms with US and we were not that economically better we were still doing alright. Currently we are better than what we were in past, so I think the balance will not change much. Additionally, we are in recovery mode trying to consolidate. So when economy takes a turn you will see balance tilting back in India's favor.

In short India has gained a lot in last 2 decades and gains don't just get washed away, we also have our levers we can press. At the same time Pakistan has taken considerable damage in last decade and their is no way to magically change things.

Last, while people talk about having weapons etc, what they miss is war needs a lot of money and that is something that Pakistan does not have, having few more types of weapons does not matter when you do not have the economy to back the war. I see a lot of people here talk about raining missiles without realizing how much it takes to sponsor such a rain.

The reason Indians are not big fan of war is because they know that the cost of war is paid for many years, the cost of 71 war is still paid by us.

 

[Donatello]

Mark Sien your are not with the times Kashmir is not even on the agenda

US-Pak relationship is based on Pakistans war against Taliban and how Co-operative Pakistan on the core Afghanistan issues that's it

Also Pakistan needs to keep handing over Taliban members to US and the whole policy on members

The day Pakistan goes against US policy In the region Pakistan will be left under sanctions

You are right and Mark is right in his assessment as well. Whether US gives us more F-16s or not, is just no longer the main aim of PAF. We already have JF-17s that offer similar capability, and USA cannot do anything in that regard. As long as China and Russia are willing to supply arms, USA is not even in the equation.

The thing is, that recently USA has realized the huge animosity against it's interests in Pakistan. Hence you see all those USAID advertisements on the tv and the USA so called 'winning the hearts' of the tribal people, people in cities. People like us, who are educated and live abroad. They know that they cannot lose Pakistan. Certainly not, after they learned that in Iran. You don't want an ally who is willing to work with you to go against your interests in the region. If that calls for giving Pakistan F-16s, they will do it.

Now, if Pakistan can come up with 3 billion USD for 36 new BLK52 F-16s, and dangle it like a carrot in front of the manufacturer like Lockheed, you think the USA is going to say no?

Just offer the cash to the US Arms industry and they will do the hard part for you: Lobby in the US congress.

Each F-16 Pakistan buys or upgrades secures jobs for US citizens. They don't give a rat's arse about India vs Pakistan. They want as much orders flowing so they can keep earning.

Our problem is cash. US is already on good relationship with Pakistan and they don't want to deteriorate the situation.

I think PAF should exercise more options for used/MLU-ed f-16s. But question is, where will they come from? Europe???

A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.

Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.

India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?

 

[Rain]

One more ........




OPSEC violations are serious business, so let me stop right here without adding anything to what has already been said.

======================================

The F-16 is a great choice for PAF, no doubt.

I always love to read your post as these are informative, logical and very accrate...But today I am disappointed. This OPSEc thing sucks hehe

 

[MastanKhan]

A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.

Hi,

It is from our perspective----we have an instant increase of strike capability without missing a beat--. So---for us--it is a big thing.

It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.

A sqdrn of frontline aircraft being acquired within days is a masive feat of procurement---. Trust me---there will be shell shocked staff at air hdqtrs in hindustan----.

It is simply not about the sqdrn gained in itself----but it is the MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF THAT NUMBER that makes the difference---.

It is on the same level as if the opponent has produced a fully strenghtened and equipped military division with all the provisions and battle ready in the blink of an eye---.

 

[araz]

You don't know vcheng, he disappointing us very frequently.

You don't know vcheng, he disappointing us very frequently.

Bhai.
You need to give peopls a little more credit. I may not know him personally but I do know a fair bit about him. I would've still say that people liie vcheng and mastan khan should be rezpectex for giving us an alternate perspective to an argument.Sometimes there is nothing better than someone who disagrees to make you see the weaknesses in your argument or plan. These people should be respected for the valuable and mostly thankless job that they do.

A sensible and welcome purchase for Pakistan no doubt. But making out this changes the balance of power in the region is nonsensical 13 second hand F-16s don't affect the bigger at all, just gives the PAF a slightly better overall force.

A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.

 

[Saifullah Sani]

Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan

According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan’s Air Force has purchased one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan. The 13 F-16s were in service in the Royal Jordanian Air Force and will be inducted into the Pakistani air force next month. The deal has been finalized, approved by both countries, as well as the United States. The 13 aircraft are the same F-16 A/B Block-15 variant that Pakistan’s Air Force already operates.

The purchase brings the Pakistan Air Force’s total F-16 count to 76. According to Defense Industry Daily, the Royal Jordanian Air Force’s F-16 MLUs (Mid-Life Update) were bought from Belgium and the Netherlands. The set sold to Pakistan is from a separate set of F-16s in use by the Jordanian Air Force. “This set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003,” according to Defense Industry Daily. The ADF variant–ADF standing for Air Defense Fighter–is more suited for dogfighting, air superiority, and interception.

Pakistan’s The News International cites “well-placed defense sources” as confirming that the purchased aircraft were in good condition and could serve for up to another 20 years, with about 3,000 flying hours available to them. The deal was set up between Pakistan and Jordan a year ago when Pakistan’s Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Tahir Rafiq Butt visited Jordan to pursue the deal. The total amount Pakistan paid for the aircraft is not known at this point, but Defense Industry Daily speculates that Jordan likely made a profit on the sale of the aircraft.

The Jordanian F-16 purchase is the latest step in the Pakistani Air Force’s ongoing efforts to bulk up its fleet. Another example of this is Pakistan and China’s joint development of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which is also being incorporated into the Pakistan Air Force.
Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com

 

[Viper0011.]

@Oscar @Aeronaut : Do you guys know the number of F-16's which have already been through the MLU process in Turkey?

 

[My-Analogous]

Bhai.
You need to give peopls a little more credit. I may not know him personally but I do know a fair bit about him. I would've still say that people liie vcheng and mastan khan should be rezpectex for giving us an alternate perspective to an argument.Sometimes there is nothing better than someone who disagrees to make you see the weaknesses in your argument or plan. These people should be respected for the valuable and mostly thankless job that they do.


A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.

Mastan Khan is very good in his logic and i like his post but Vchang don't have that strong logic and he have very weak supporting documents and that is way he disappoint me frequently.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hi,
It is from our perspective----we have an instant increase of strike capability without missing a beat--. So---for us--it is a big thing.
It becomes very clear where our commitment lies now. We got a better performing aircraft at a fraction of the cost---. Now it is about the numbers.
A sqdrn of frontline aircraft being acquired within days is a masive feat of procurement---. Trust me---there will be shell shocked staff at air hdqtrs in hindustan----.
It is simply not about the sqdrn gained in itself----but it is the MULTIPLIER EFFECT OF THAT NUMBER that makes the difference---.
It is on the same level as if the opponent has produced a fully strenghtened and equipped military division with all the provisions and battle ready in the blink of an eye---.

A full squadron strength is 16(16--20) normally amd I gather the PAF has bought a squadron 13 of which will arrive in a month. I tech leap would be to have a ready squadron of planes for which the infrastructure already exists and no pilot training is required. If someone can raise a squadron of BVR ready planes in a month it would be quite an achievement since half your fleet is already obsolete. This is what mastan khan is talking about.

I wasn't doubting the fact this is a significant increase in the PAF's fleet, this represents something like a 20% increase in your top-end strike fleet which isn't a bad month for any air force. All I was challenging was the point that this changes the balance of power in the region- that is all.

Get this second hand thing out of your head. If that makes you feel safe, lets leave it there. Rest assured, a used F-16 can bomb as many targets in India as a new F-16 or Rafale. So please stop with this non-sense. So many posts on this forum and you still haven't learned a thing.
India operates used Aircraft Carrier. Should i say they don't pose a threat?

I'd hate to break your delusions but the fact something is second-hand IS relevant, you can't just ignore this fact. Seen as you brought up the Vikramditya let me use this analogy also and put aside that something like 75-80% of this ship is new (these ex-Jordainian F-16s won't see anywhere near as much work done on them but that is neither here nor there).I'm not going to try and make out the Viky's age has no affect on its overall capacities and that its age means nothing. The age of the ship means:

a) it cost a significant amount of $$$ to bring it up to a somewhat contemporary level (the Jordanian F-16s face the same issue)

b) Given the advances in designs and technology it will never be as capable as a new build contemporary product (see IAC-1) built in the modern age even if the tonnage and length are identical (not as much of an issue for the F-16s as the F-16s are still generally the same design and off the shelf upgrades exist)

c) The Viky will, as a result of her age, cost more to operate (the crew on the Viky is considerably larger than what will be on the IAC-1) and will have a shorter service life in the IN than a new build ACC (the former is not as relevant but the latter for the Jordanian F-16s is. Much of the life is already going to have been taken out of these birds and whilst some work may be done now to extend the lives on the Falcons you can not recover what has already been lost and the PAF aren't going to go for the intensive overhauls that will reset the lives of these birds.)


So yes, this is a boost for the PAF- I NEVER questioned this. But the point they are second-hand IS relevant and don't attack me for pointing this out. We all know if the PAF had the cash they wouldn't be go for second hand products- this is just the position they are in.


Anyway all the best to you chaps and your new purchases.