Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Zarvan]

India will eventually field 8 regiments (500 TANKS) of heavy Arjun tanks to form the desert sepearhead in rajasthan currentlu only 3 regiments i service mark 1 and 1a but will grow now with mark 2

There are over 30 regiments of T90 tanks now 2000+

And at least 20 regiments of T72 1000+ many of these upgraded but need replacing soon.

When that happens wake me up

 

[IblinI]

biggest fanboy triggered..

 

[waz]

thank you good comparison I think there are equally matched
one issue for pakistan the Indians have over 2000 t90 main battle tanks in contrast I think pakistan have barely 300 vt4 tanks .
indian t90 fleet is 6 times,the size of your vt4.

one more thing the most powerful.and most modern tank in indian army now is the arjun.
240 in service and 123 more on order
Arjun is the only heavy tank fielded in South Asia,they cost twice the cost of t90 or vt4 but are western designed concept tanks or indian equivalent of chinease t99 heavy tanks .
An Arjun v vt4 or T90 my money is on Arjun all.day

Nope they are not equally matched at all, the VT-4 is far superior to the TY90MS in terms of electronics , armour, mobility etc. This debate has been done, please see the thread earlier.
India does not have anywhere near 2,000 T-90 tanks, it has just over a 1,000, this has also been discussed.


The numbers are here;

From March 25 2020.

There are currently around 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service, although the operational readiness rate of the tanks remains unclear. According to one estimate, 850-900 are of the T-90S Bhishma variant. Of the two, the T-90MS MBT is the more advanced design.”

Meet India's T-90M Bhishma Tank: Russian Tech, Indian Made

A good combo?

nationalinterest.org

It entered service with the Russian Army in 1992. In February 2001, the Indian Army signed a contract for 310 T-90S tanks: 124 were completed in Russia and the rest were delivered in ‘knocked down’ form for final assembly in India.

The Indian Ministry of Defence placed a $2.8bn contract with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to licence-build 464 additional T-90S tanks at its heavy vehicle factory (HVF), Avadi, for the Indian Army in November 2019.

T-90S Main Battle Tank (MBT), Russia

The T-90S main battle tank (MBT) is a powerful Russian tank with increased firepower, mobility and protection.

www.army-technology.com

Pakistan's initial order is 300 tanks yes, but there are plans for over 1,000. Do remember 180 tanks are already being delivered.
The Arjun suffers mobility issues, has less HP ratio than the VT4 and we could go on.

 

[The Maverick]

Nope they are not equally matched at all, the VT-4 is far superior to the TY90MS in terms of electronics , armour, mobility etc. This debate has been done, please see the thread earlier.
India does not have anywhere near 2,000 T-90 tanks, it has just over a 1,000, this has also been discussed.


The numbers are here;

From March 25 2020.

There are currently around 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service, although the operational readiness rate of the tanks remains unclear. According to one estimate, 850-900 are of the T-90S Bhishma variant. Of the two, the T-90MS MBT is the more advanced design.”

Meet India's T-90M Bhishma Tank: Russian Tech, Indian Made

A good combo?

nationalinterest.org

It entered service with the Russian Army in 1992. In February 2001, the Indian Army signed a contract for 310 T-90S tanks: 124 were completed in Russia and the rest were delivered in ‘knocked down’ form for final assembly in India.

The Indian Ministry of Defenc
e placed a $2.8bn contract with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to licence-build 464 additional T-90S tanks at its heavy vehicle factory (HVF), Avadi, for the Indian Army in November 2019.

T-90S Main Battle Tank (MBT), Russia

The T-90S main battle tank (MBT) is a powerful Russian tank with increased firepower, mobility and protection.

www.army-technology.com

Pakistan's initial order is 300 tanks yes, but there are plans for over 1,000. Do remember 180 tanks are already being delivered.
The Arjun suffers mobility issues, has less HP ratio than the VT4 and we could go on.

you have barely 170.vt4 tanks delivered to date out if 300
plans for 1000 are plans not ordered..as our esteemed friend yasser says,.

India t90 contracts are 1650 MS nearly all delivered and 464 newer t90s 125 delivered thus far .

which ever the ratio between.t90.vt4 today is 6 or 7 to 1 tank.

as for Arjun that is the largest and heaviest tank in class of t99 Chinese tanks and the hardest to stop as per vedio . mark 2 is the latest variant which had over 70 improvements.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Nope they are not equally matched at all, the VT-4 is far superior to the TY90MS in terms of electronics , armour, mobility etc. This debate has been done, please see the thread earlier.
India does not have anywhere near 2,000 T-90 tanks, it has just over a 1,000, this has also been discussed.


The numbers are here;

From March 25 2020.

There are currently around 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service, although the operational readiness rate of the tanks remains unclear. According to one estimate, 850-900 are of the T-90S Bhishma variant. Of the two, the T-90MS MBT is the more advanced design.”

Meet India's T-90M Bhishma Tank: Russian Tech, Indian Made

A good combo?

nationalinterest.org

It entered service with the Russian Army in 1992. In February 2001, the Indian Army signed a contract for 310 T-90S tanks: 124 were completed in Russia and the rest were delivered in ‘knocked down’ form for final assembly in India.

The Indian Ministry of Defence placed a $2.8bn contract with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to licence-build 464 additional T-90S tanks at its heavy vehicle factory (HVF), Avadi, for the Indian Army in November 2019.

T-90S Main Battle Tank (MBT), Russia

The T-90S main battle tank (MBT) is a powerful Russian tank with increased firepower, mobility and protection.

www.army-technology.com

Pakistan's initial order is 300 tanks yes, but there are plans for over 1,000. Do remember 180 tanks are already being delivered.
The Arjun suffers mobility issues, has less HP ratio than the VT4 and we could go on.

Moreover, as i have clarified this thing on several other threads as well....comparison of numbers can be misleading at times.

Take the example of T90s and VT4s....

All T90s are not geographically located at any one point, rather, they are located at multiple locations seperated by geo obstacles such as wide rivers. These separate concentrations can be isolated and made irrelevant by mere destruction of some critical bridges.......and bridge destruction to stop movement of tank formations is just ONE way of making them irrelevant....

All T-90s, whether they are 1000 or 2000, cannot be thrown together at any one point......most of them will always part of uncommitted reserves which the enemy will always keep in hand for critical situations, or even refrain from applying them in battle, saving them for post war bargaining or recovering of critical territory captured.

In our case, VT4s, all of them, are geolocated at one geo area, part of one Division. Wherever this division is thrown, its will be a whole, homogenous force of VT4s coming for assault together.

as for Arjun that is the largest and heaviest tank in class of t99 Chinese tanks and the hardest to stop as per vedio . mark 2 is the latest variant which had over 70 improvements.

In our terrain of sub continent, heavier tanks mostly can become a liability, they are easily bogged down in soft terrain, whether its plains of Punjab or desert, moreover, they require bridges, and that too not normal bridges, they will actually require 60 ton bridges.....such bridges are seldom found, and very hard to replace once knocked out.

 

[Ghost 125]

thank you good comparison I think there are equally matched
one issue for pakistan the Indians have over 2000 t90 main battle tanks in contrast I think pakistan have barely 300 vt4 tanks .
indian t90 fleet is 6 times,the size of your vt4.

one more thing the most powerful.and most modern tank in indian army now is the arjun.
240 in service and 123 more on order
Arjun is the only heavy tank fielded in South Asia,they cost twice the cost of t90 or vt4 but are western designed concept tanks or indian equivalent of chinease t99 heavy tanks .
An Arjun v vt4 or T90 my money is on Arjun all.day

240 arjuns are NOT in service, only three regiments totalling less thn 130
when all T 90 MS delivered (MS, i think is still not in indian service), total number will be around 1600-1650

 

[waz]

you have barely 170.vt4 tanks delivered to date out if 300
plans for 1000 are plans not ordered..as our esteemed friend yasser says,.

India t90 contracts are 1650 MS nearly all delivered and 464 newer t90s 125 delivered thus far .

which ever the ratio between.t90.vt4 today is 6 or 7 to 1 tank.

as for Arjun that is the largest and heaviest tank in class of t99 Chinese tanks and the hardest to stop as per vedio . mark 2 is the latest variant which had over 70 improvements.

You don't know anything about deliveries we do. That 300 figure will be met soon, we already have over half that.
Right about the numbers, do you have links of 1,650 delivered, batch numbers, media reports etc? I showed you links with figure below what you quote.
Yes the ratio is indeed higher, but not for long. The VT4 is also better, you don't take that into account. But you may disagree which is fine.
The Arjun currently is in tiny numbers to make an impact. It certainly isn't suitable for the terrain where both armoured forces would meet. However that being said, it's still a good tank.

Nobody Cares About The Indian Arjun Tank

One of the highlights from last month’s DEFEXPO 2018–the massive arms show organized by the Indian government and held every two years–was a public demonstration to showcase local…

21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com

 

[Irfan Baloch]

All T90s are not geographically located at any one point, rather, they are located at multiple locations seperated by geo obstacles such as wide rivers. These separate concentrations can be isolated and made irrelevant by mere destruction of some critical bridges.......and bridge destruction to stop movement of tank formations is just ONE way of making them irrelevant....

I will Urge
everybody please read above quote and then read again. if you don't understand please read this quote few more times . and if you think you understand then read it again one more time.

after you have read it multiple times and absorbed it then I am sure you will understand that expecting the entire inventory of T-90s to be massed up in a single assembly point, all up and running ,fully serviced/ operational, repaired and maintained is not only logistically and physically impossible but goes against every principle of military strategy to bring them all in one place.

and even if a fraction (one half, one fourth) of that armchair number is achieved in a single theatre then it will require equally or bigger number of other logistics , support and defence from other ground and air units to defend it. And at what expense to all other areas from where these T-90s are moved.

and just final thought how big target it will present to the opposing side which can inflict massive loss though most efficient strikes.

 

[waz]

Moreover, as i have clarified this thing on several other threads as well....comparison of numbers can be misleading at times.

Take the example of T90s and VT4s....

All T90s are not geographically located at any one point, rather, they are located at multiple locations seperated by geo obstacles such as wide rivers. These separate concentrations can be isolated and made irrelevant by mere destruction of some critical bridges.......and bridge destruction to stop movement of tank formations is just ONE way of making them irrelevant....

All T-90s, whether they are 1000 or 2000, cannot be thrown together at any one point......most of them will always part of uncommitted reserves which the enemy will always keep in hand for critical situations, or even refrain from applying them in battle, saving them for post war bargaining or recovering of critical territory captured.

In our case, VT4s, all of them, are geolocated at one geo area, part of one Division. Wherever this division is thrown, its will be a whole, homogenous force of VT4s coming for assault together.

Good solid points brother. Thank you for the input.

 

[Tipu7]

one issue for pakistan the Indians have over 2000 t90 main battle tanks

Approximately 1150 T-90S operational in Indian Army. Target of 1250 T-90S will be achieved by 2022.

one more thing the most powerful.and most modern tank in indian army now is the arjun.
240 in service and 123 more on order

124 Arjun Mk1 operational. Order for additional 124 Arjun Mk2 is expected.

 

[KaiserX]

Nope they are not equally matched at all, the VT-4 is far superior to the TY90MS in terms of electronics , armour, mobility etc. This debate has been done, please see the thread earlier.
India does not have anywhere near 2,000 T-90 tanks, it has just over a 1,000, this has also been discussed.


The numbers are here;

From March 25 2020.

There are currently around 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service, although the operational readiness rate of the tanks remains unclear. According to one estimate, 850-900 are of the T-90S Bhishma variant. Of the two, the T-90MS MBT is the more advanced design.”

Meet India's T-90M Bhishma Tank: Russian Tech, Indian Made

A good combo?

nationalinterest.org

It entered service with the Russian Army in 1992. In February 2001, the Indian Army signed a contract for 310 T-90S tanks: 124 were completed in Russia and the rest were delivered in ‘knocked down’ form for final assembly in India.

The Indian Ministry of Defence placed a $2.8bn contract with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to licence-build 464 additional T-90S tanks at its heavy vehicle factory (HVF), Avadi, for the Indian Army in November 2019.

T-90S Main Battle Tank (MBT), Russia

The T-90S main battle tank (MBT) is a powerful Russian tank with increased firepower, mobility and protection.

www.army-technology.com

Pakistan's initial order is 300 tanks yes, but there are plans for over 1,000. Do remember 180 tanks are already being delivered.
The Arjun suffers mobility issues, has less HP ratio than the VT4 and we could go on.

I think the PA will cap the VT-4 between 400-500. The other 400-500 tanks will be Al-Khalid 1b-2 variants. Remember Pakistan intends to focus on domestic production/upgrades while procuring the latest Chinese products to supplement in numbers and future upgrade TOT for existing domestic products.

Also I wouldnt be suprised if Pakistan started producing its own sub 40 ton light tank in the future. We could build upon the existing Al-zarrar upgrade facilities which already exist. Something along the lines of the VT-5 which would be much more capable/practical than producing an IFV which are light and still even prone to RPG fires.

VT5 Light Tank | Military-Today.com

The VT5 is a new Chinese light tank, that is being proposed for export. This tank has an entirely new design. It is intended for reconnaissance and infantry support opperations.

www.military-today.com

 

[waz]

I think the PA will cap the VT-4 between 400-500. The other 400-500 tanks will be Al-Khalid 1b-2 variants. Remember Pakistan intends to focus on domestic production/upgrades while procuring the latest Chinese products to supplement in numbers and future upgrade TOT for existing domestic products.

Also I wouldnt be suprised if Pakistan started producing its own sub 40 ton light tank in the future. We could build upon the existing Al-zarrar upgrade facilities which already exist. Something along the lines of the VT-5 which would be much more capable/practical than producing an IFV which are light and still even prone to RPG fires.

VT5 Light Tank | Military-Today.com

The VT5 is a new Chinese light tank, that is being proposed for export. This tank has an entirely new design. It is intended for reconnaissance and infantry support opperations.

www.military-today.com

The thing is production is too slow for that. Just take a look at how many Al-Khalid that around 600, after how many years...
The numbers need to be upped and there is too much to replace.

 

[KaiserX]

The thing is production is too slow for that. Just take a look at how many Al-Khalid that around 600, after how many years...
The numbers need to be upped and there is too much to replace.

Unfortunately we have far to much state involvement in our military industry. HIT is one of the many SOE that is better off being privatized. For this to happen domestic pakistani companies have to be rich enough to make such purchases... well how would they get rich??? The govt could start subcontracting them and buying their products.

HIT right now is pitiful. It has the capacity to produce 100 Al-khalids a year since the last 15 years yet it has barely been able to produce 35-40 a year. This is the result of sheer mismanagement and no matter how many retired generals we put at the helm nothing has changed. Lets start by atleast making full use of our existing capacity.

More hands in the private arm industries pockets the more R&D we will get. More state guidance and less state control. Similar to Israel and now Turkey.

 

[Adnan ash]

thank you good comparison I think there are equally matched
one issue for pakistan the Indians have over 2000 t90 main battle tanks in contrast I think pakistan have barely 300 vt4 tanks .
indian t90 fleet is 6 times,the size of your vt4.

one more thing the most powerful.and most modern tank in indian army now is the arjun.
240 in service and 123 more on order
Arjun is the only heavy tank fielded in South Asia,they cost twice the cost of t90 or vt4 but are western designed concept tanks or indian equivalent of chinease t99 heavy tanks .
An Arjun v vt4 or T90 my money is on Arjun all.day

First the videos show a comparison between VT-4 and T-90MS not with T-90S
and second, for 2000 T-90's PA has 320 T-80UDs and ~400 AK's Plus Al zarar equipped with thermal sights
India will induct T-90MS. this shows how powerful and most modern Arjun is please read this (120mm FSAPDS only 300mm)
Most heaviest tank in the region that is true

 

[IblinI]

(120mm FSAPDS only 300mm)