Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[monitor]

Hi,

There were supposedly some massive kickbacks in the T129 deal---.




Hi,

A delayed project is a stopped project---.

If your mother was dying of corona today you would NOT be waiting for the Turkish medicine coming after 5 years---. I bet you would get the chinese medicine that is available today---.



Hi,

This only works against lightly armed afghan taliban---.

Z-10 were not chosen as its engine problem and not reaching sufficient heights pa wants to fight. T-129 can reaches more height then Z-10. Lettest Z-10E have mitigate all the short coming of Z-10.
As Indigenous Turkish engine is far cry from serial production . Unless turkey can solve the us engine re export problem Pakistan have no better option then "Z-10P" From China.

 

[ziaulislam]

Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
Hürkuş-C

drones should be an option for long endurance tank-killing solution..indigenous design that can be mass-produced in 300-400 number at least with ability to be able to fly from motorways/highways and low maintenance high mobility launch capability ..each having payload of 4-8 antitank weapons with a range of 8-10 km..just like brimstone (weight 50kg)
something like this

or future stealth drone like this

regardless t 129 deal is dead..i doubt it will be smart to weight for turkish engine..unless PA wants to play the long game..get into the boat with all Turkish helios including the transport program ..
i dont see any intention on that front

 

[volatile]

just to add Z10s faced problems while flights took place in desert as engines were not designed to withstand the dust/sand ,above many requirements/improvements the addition of filters at inlet were also added .

just to add Z10s faced problems while flights took place in desert as engines were not designed to withstand the dust/sand ,above many requirements/improvements the addition of filters at inlet were also added .

 

[ziaulislam]

having said that we need to eliminate our deserts..
if California can have more area under cultivation with 1/3rd of water why can't Pakistan do it..
you have 3 times more water as Eygpt under river Nile... 3 times as much as California but water gets wasted in canals..
result..some area WATER CLOGGED and some areas BARREN

thal and thar desert shouldn't exist ..it exists due to incompetence

 

[Affanakad0t.]

This only works against lightly armed afghan taliban---.

Afghan taliban?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

regardless t 129 deal is dead..i doubt it will be smart to weight for turkish engine..unless PA wants to play the long game..get into the boat with all Turkish helios including the transport program ..
i dont see any intention on that front

IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.

The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey.

Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry.

It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.

The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey.

Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry.

It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).

The hulls of helicopters developed by TAI in the future can be produced in Pakistan in the short term and the helicopter can be combined there. Pakistan also has work force, even if Turkey hasn't selected in this deal, it should be placed to work with China.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.

The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey.

Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry.

It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).

What year you think Turkish engine would be ready for export?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What year you think Turkish engine would be ready for export?

TEI is aiming for 2025, but I think 2028-2030.

It's a long time, and I'm 100% sure the Army isn't going to wait.

Ideally, the Army would succeed in settling near-term needs with a heavyweight attack helicopter (8-10 ton). This was the original plan with the AH-1Z so that it doesn't have overlapping types, rather complementary systems. So, if only we can succeed with our efforts to secure the CSF/FMF...

 

[GriffinsRule]

TEI is aiming for 2025, but I think 2028-2030.

It's a long time, and I'm 100% sure the Army isn't going to wait.

Ideally, the Army would succeed in settling near-term needs with a heavyweight attack helicopter (8-10 ton). This was the original plan with the AH-1Z so that it doesn't have overlapping types, rather complementary systems. So, if only we can succeed with our efforts to secure the CSF/FMF...

The years is not a very long time in terms of aviation, though Pakistan is perhaps already half way through that decade where the initial planning and procurement stages were held. Still, with the helicopter fleet it needs to replace, esp the Pumas and the Sea Kings (and even older Hips) it makes sense to go for a universal platform that can also form the basis of the industrial setup inside the country and put us on the road for a semi-indigenous solution later on.
In the short-term we will have to make do with what we have. This pandemic actually has bought us some time as wars are fought on the backs of economic strength and India is not in any shape to start one for the time being.
We need to maximize this and think where we want to be in 10-20 years, and not where we should have been right now. In that regards, Turkey is the best way forward, and where they don't have a solution, we have China's newer offerings (once they are mature enough) as a back up.

 

[TOPGUN]

We need to get over T-129 its not going to happen !!

 

[IceCold]

We need to get over T-129 its not going to happen !!

We have wasted too much time on betting upon the wrong horse. With war looming over the horizon, it is paramount that Pakistan should now push the americans to release Super Cobras. Recently US approached Pakistan over Afghanistan, now is the perfect time to ask americans its time you do something for us first and that is to release our cobras first. There is no other short term option.

 

[Akh1112]

Z-10 were not chosen as its engine problem and not reaching sufficient heights pa wants to fight. T-129 can reaches more height then Z-10. Lettest Z-10E have mitigate all the short coming of Z-10.
As Indigenous Turkish engine is far cry from serial production . Unless turkey can solve the us engine re export problem Pakistan have no better option then "Z-10P" From China.

Thats not entirely true, the Z-10 also cannot carry a full payload due to weak engines, it was not selected due to it only being able to carry half a payload

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The years is not a very long time in terms of aviation, though Pakistan is perhaps already half way through that decade where the initial planning and procurement stages were held. Still, with the helicopter fleet it needs to replace, esp the Pumas and the Sea Kings (and even older Hips) it makes sense to go for a universal platform that can also form the basis of the industrial setup inside the country and put us on the road for a semi-indigenous solution later on.
In the short-term we will have to make do with what we have. This pandemic actually has bought us some time as wars are fought on the backs of economic strength and India is not in any shape to start one for the time being.
We need to maximize this and think where we want to be in 10-20 years, and not where we should have been right now. In that regards, Turkey is the best way forward, and where they don't have a solution, we have China's newer offerings (once they are mature enough) as a back up.

Exactly.

The T629 and T625 will use the same engine and critical parts. So, we can use the T629 as our mainstay attack helicopter (to match-up with the LCH), and the T625 for utility. In fact, we can use the T625 for carrying troops, CSAR, naval ops, etc.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Exactly.

The T629 and T625 will use the same engine and critical parts. So, we can use the T629 as our mainstay attack helicopter (to match-up with the LCH), and the T625 for utility. In fact, we can use the T625 for carrying troops, CSAR, naval ops, etc.

Both heli will good option in future inductions, but for time gap till now we can go for Chinese Z10 chines change its engine and air intake after feedback from Pakistan, 3 of intial z 10 stay in Pakistan for more then year and tested in multiple area, second option is to include limited number of MI 28 or Mi 52 mau be only 6 initially like we did will Mi 35 from russia.
So combination of Z10 and few russian Heli can give some kind heli attack option till Turkish heli not available