Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[araz]

Do take note T-129K is a 3.6tons Helo and lacking armour vs a 5tons Z-10. I doubt turkey has some super material that can make up for the extra 1.4tons of weight mostly going into armour the helo.

The problem was the engine. Other things may have been issues but minor ones. As long as the engines are uprated and suitable for the heavy helicopter, A TRIAL WILL MOST LIKELY BE CONDUCTED. Subsequent procurement will be on the basis of suitability of the platform in light of the new tests.
A

@Aamir Hussain @araz @Imran Khan
What about South African Denel AH-2 Rooivalk?
It may be a costly but with complete ToT it seems promising.

I know only that the programme has been halted and production siezed for some time due to lack of interest. So it is currently not an option.
A

What do you mean not allowed you crackhead the deal is done pilot training is gonna be in a few months

It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.
A

 

[cabatli_53]

As a note, Italy has revealed the new design of 8ton AW-249 attack helicopter that Poland is planning to participate, While Turkiye is preparing to make maiden flight of 11ton Atak-2 in 2022.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I know only that the programme has been halted and production siezed for some time due to lack of interest. So it is currently not an option.
A

@denel

 

[denel]

@denel

Not correct, the project is still on going but at a much slower pace; upgrades are in flight right now.

Rooivalk was offered to Turkey in the mid 90s' and was in the running against the european consortium; it had better features at the time but the Turks buckled under the pressure for consideration of EU memberships and other issues.

 

[doorstar]

It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.

Thank you!

I do not for the life of me understand as to why no one here realizes that T-129 is a British/Italian machine with some vital Parts from America. Turks are nothing but glorified assemblers of it and can only sell it to the countries approved by the USA and UK/Italy. They only have a license to assemble it for the use of Turk forces, anything beyond that requires new licenses which won't easily be available because the real owners would like the profits for themselves rather than lose them to Turkey

the clues can be found in the first page of this here thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-armys-t-129-atak-helicopter-deal-updates-discussions.44640/

even if they now are manufacturing it under license (for their own use) rather than just assembling it, it still doesn't make them the owners of it.

 

[xbat]

Thank you!

I do not for the life of me understand as to why no one here realizes that T-129 is a British/Italian machine with some vital Parts from America. Turks are nothing but glorified assemblers of it and can only sell it to the countries approved by the USA and UK/Italy. They only have a license to assemble it for the use of Turk forces, anything beyond that requires new licenses which won't easily be available because the real owners would like the profits for themselves rather than lose them to Turkey

the clues can be find in the first page of this here thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-armys-t-129-atak-helicopter-deal-updates-discussions.44640/

even if they now are manufacturing it under license (for their own use) rather than just assembling it, it still doesn't make them the owners of it.

You are wrong! Turkey bought IP rights of that heli. Turkey can change anything on that heli and sell everyone. Except UK and Italy. Some part of heli is still being produced in Italy, engine is US-UK you know that. but heli is belong to Turkey. soon T129 will have its local engine.

 

[doorstar]

You are wrong! Turkey bought IP rights of that heli. Turkey can change anything on that heli and sell everyone. Except UK and Italy. Some part of heli is still being produced in Italy, engine is US-UK you know that. but heli is belong to Turkey. soon T129 will have its local engine.

thanks for the update, a corroborating link will be much appreciated

 

[Nasr]

Pakistan should have gone with the Chinese WZ-10s, with conculsive specifications to the design of the helicopter gunships, tailored to Pakistan Army Aviation's needs. This would have allowed Pakistan Army to set-up facilities to build on ToT. A powerful friend in the North with whom Pakistan has deep ties with, Pakistan Army could've taken advantage of. Yet, a ridiculous deal was signed with Turkey for T-129s and Milgem Corvettes.

I do not think Pakistan has learnt it's lessons from the past, where we have been subjected to sanctions and heavy lobbying by the enemy. It costed Pakistan during the wars in 1965 & 1971. Who came to Pakistan's rescue then? Yeah, it was China! Yet the thinking in our leadership seems to be rotting at the core, whereby we sideline the main advantage we have.

Previous years, the argument used to be that China lacks in technological superiority in their military hardware. Yet, today we see China excelling far beyond any could have imagined. Instead of investing in joint-ventures with China, like we have with the JF-17s. We are running after marshmallows like T-129s.

Pakistan has not taken advantage of it's alliance with China. Worse still, Pakistan's leadership is not showing it's seriousness about developing strategic relations with Russia. Forget india's relationship with Russia. Forge one which surpasses any value india may hold with Russia. This is how strategies are won, by tactically out manuevering your enemy.

With or without the WZ-10s, there is also Russia's formidable Ka-52 Black Shark and Mi-28 Havoc helicopter gunship that could eat the T-129 for breakfast. Pakistan already operates Mi-35 Hinds. We are just dragging our feet with the T-129s, which are engineless and toothless because they can are being sanctioned.

Now that is a word Pakistanis have easily forgotten .... SANCTIONS!! Ring a bell????

 

[xbat]

thanks for the update, a corroborating link will be much appreciated

from 2014
http://www.helipress.net/schede-583-military_helicopters_t129_atak_the_mangusta_made_in_turkey_video

"It's a brand new project : Turkey owns the intellectual property rights and marketing, and can even export its version of the helicopter."

 

[doorstar]

from 2014
http://www.helipress.net/schede-583-military_helicopters_t129_atak_the_mangusta_made_in_turkey_video

"It's a brand new project : Turkey owns the intellectual property rights and marketing, and can even export its version of the helicopter."

so delivery to Pakistan is imminent

 

[V. Makarov]

Pakistan should have gone with the Chinese WZ-10s, with conculsive specifications to the design of the helicopter gunships, tailored to Pakistan Army Aviation's needs. This would have allowed Pakistan Army to set-up facilities to build on ToT. A powerful friend in the North with whom Pakistan has deep ties with, Pakistan Army could've taken advantage of. Yet, a ridiculous deal was signed with Turkey for T-129s and Milgem Corvettes.

I do not think Pakistan has learnt it's lessons from the past, where we have been subjected to sanctions and heavy lobbying by the enemy. It costed Pakistan during the wars in 1965 & 1971. Who came to Pakistan's rescue then? Yeah, it was China! Yet the thinking in our leadership seems to be rotting at the core, whereby we sideline the main advantage we have.

Previous years, the argument used to be that China lacks in technological superiority in their military hardware. Yet, today we see China excelling far beyond any could have imagined. Instead of investing in joint-ventures with China, like we have with the JF-17s. We are running after marshmallows like T-129s.

Pakistan has not taken advantage of it's alliance with China. Worse still, Pakistan's leadership is not showing it's seriousness about developing strategic relations with Russia. Forget india's relationship with Russia. Forge one which surpasses any value india may hold with Russia. This is how strategies are won, by tactically out manuevering your enemy.

With or without the WZ-10s, there is also Russia's formidable Ka-52 Black Shark and Mi-28 Havoc helicopter gunship that could eat the T-129 for breakfast. Pakistan already operates Mi-35 Hinds. We are just dragging our feet with the T-129s, which are engineless and toothless because they can are being sanctioned.

Now that is a word Pakistanis have easily forgotten .... SANCTIONS!! Ring a bell????

You make a lot of sense. I dont know why army aviation would like to have Turk equipment even though military future of our country lies with China.

China is making great strides in military tech. China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.

However, I want to know more about your comparison between Russian copters and the new Turk ones. You seem to paint a very bleak picture of our decision.

 

[kenyannoobie]

Not correct, the project is still on going but at a much slower pace; upgrades are in flight right now.

Rooivalk was offered to Turkey in the mid 90s' and was in the running against the european consortium; it had better features at the time but the Turks buckled under the pressure for consideration of EU memberships and other issues.

The story of the Rooivalk tells me you guys are punching above your geopolitical weight shopping this excellent heavyweight gunship around-Malaysians,Turks and even the Brits have all liked it but turned it down-why? Johnny Brit said no when the US refused to share codes that would've allowed it to fire the Hellfire though some say the Mokopa is even better.
Imo,Denel should develop a lite entry level version like a heavier 530 MD minus all the fancy electro optics specifically for the 3rd world and Africa but with a cockpit armoured to resist 7.62 NATO at 50 m and a max ordnance payload of 1.5 T. A pair of .50 BMGs with a 1000 rounds each,2 19 tube 68 mm rocket launchers per wing stub or 2 9 tube 130 mm rocket launchers. Hopefully this will bring the unit cost to a max of 10 mn $. Frankly,its a very big ask for a RSA,still a developing nation despite strong belief otherwise to sell HW gunships,a function restricted to the planet's heavy hitters and now Turkey:you'll ofc have noticed their engine issues?

 

[princefaisal]

Is it possible to arrange the Rooivalk engines from Denel and install it on Pakistani T-129s?

 

[denel]

Is it possible to arrange the Rooivalk engines from Denel and install it on Pakistani T-129s?

no. these engines are from the Oryx. this was deliberately done to keep synergies with the Oryx medium lift helo we have

The story of the Rooivalk tells me you guys are punching above your geopolitical weight shopping this excellent heavyweight gunship around-Malaysians,Turks and even the Brits have all liked it but turned it down-why? Johnny Brit said no when the US refused to share codes that would've allowed it to fire the Hellfire though some say the Mokopa is even better.
Imo,Denel should develop a lite entry level version like a heavier 530 MD minus all the fancy electro optics specifically for the 3rd world and Africa but with a cockpit armoured to resist 7.62 NATO at 50 m and a max ordnance payload of 1.5 T. A pair of .50 BMGs with a 1000 rounds each,2 19 tube 68 mm rocket launchers per wing stub or 2 9 tube 130 mm rocket launchers. Hopefully this will bring the unit cost to a max of 10 mn $. Frankly,its a very big ask for a RSA,still a developing nation despite strong belief otherwise to sell HW gunships,a function restricted to the planet's heavy hitters and now Turkey:you'll ofc have noticed their engine issues?

rafiki habari gani. hiyo ni matata ya mzungu
back to English.
We have been developing our own equipment for decades and cut reliance on external parties; exactly because of this nonsense of external engines etc etc; sanctions taught us the hard way never to rely on US or Europeans.
Across the continent, there is no need for gunships except in RSA or may be in Egypt which is why there was no lower tier; plus we were fighting the Cubans which were fielding Mi-24s at the time in Angola.

 

[Dazzler]

so delivery to Pakistan is imminent

Turks have assured timely deliveries of all 30 to Pakistan.