Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[araz]

To me the prime question which everyone avoids for the simple reason that it will kill the whole debate and even more important than PAs financial constraints is availability. T129B which the version that we are looking to acquire is not even Inducted in Turkish forces. Any order will require the needs of the local force to be fulfilled first and then take orders for export. The same is the case with the Zulu. US is saying it might give us some cobras in the interim but we have gone hoarse demanding more helos and none/ few have come which have not been enough given our utilization of the platform. This only leave us with MI series which are readily available and battle tested. Therefore for use NOW when we need them the only viable option is the red bear and the MI series. The rest may be future acquisitions but not at least till 2018-20. It is therefore contingent to think of helo options in the now and future sequence to get the right answers. Incidentally in the future acquisition we need to look at the WS10 and its future iterations. The Chinese dont want to lose their market and therefore are sweetening the deal with an offering of 3 platforms that have been in the news for T &E. This also needs to be considered in the context of its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day our future acquisitions will be decided in this manner
Araz

 

[cabatli_53]

To me the prime question which everyone avoids for the simple reason that it will kill the whole debate and even more important than PAs financial constraints is availability. T129B which the version that we are looking to acquire is not even Inducted in Turkish forces. Any order will require the needs of the local force to be fulfilled first and then take orders for export. The same is the case with the Zulu. US is saying it might give us some cobras in the interim but we have gone hoarse demanding more helos and none/ few have come which have not been enough given our utilization of the platform. This only leave us with MI series which are readily available and battle tested. Therefore for use NOW when we need them the only viable option is the red bear and the MI series. The rest may be future acquisitions but not at least till 2018-20. It is therefore contingent to think of helo options in the now and future sequence to get the right answers. Incidentally in the future acquisition we need to look at the WS10 and its future iterations. The Chinese dont want to lose their market and therefore are sweetening the deal with an offering of 3 platforms that have been in the news for T &E. This also needs to be considered in the context of its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day our future acquisitions will be decided in this manner
Araz

T129B1 variant is not structurally different than current 129A-EDH Turkish army operates at present. B1 will have more advanced variant of EDH in terms of electronics, weapon system and self protection sensors. That's why the copters are classified as;

T129EDH = Combat support variant
T129B1 = Multi-Role (Terorist hunter on high-hot mountainous areas, anti-tank and enemy surveillance missions)

In additions, T-129B production is proceeding to induct Turkish Army. At present, Deliveries of A variant is completed.

Those guys are not test pilots of TAI. They are Turkish Land Forces pilots trained by TAI, showing capabilities of T129A to public and media.

The pilots trained for T129A is going to be able to operate T129B variant as well. Their cockpit designs will also be same. With commencement of B variant deliveries, Modernization of A Ataks will also be upgraded to B1. I mean, There will not be a variant of A in following years. It is T129B2 variant that will have some structural modifications on fuselage.

Those are only self protection electronic warfare suits to be integrated on B1 which make B1 prevent to be a likely target of IIR/Lazer/Radar guided missiles.

 

[shaheenmissile]

How much t-129 weighs empty?

Also i read about 137 kg in the tail issue

 

[araz]

T129B1 variant is not structurally different than current 129A-EDH Turkish army operates at present. B1 will have more advanced variant of EDH in terms of electronics, weapon system and self protection sensors. That's why the copters are classified as;

T129EDH = Combat support variant
T129B1 = Multi-Role (Terorist hunter on high-hot mountainous areas, anti-tank and enemy surveillance missions)

In additions, T-129B production is proceeding to induct Turkish Army. At present, Deliveries of A variant is completed.

Those guys are not test pilots of TAI. They are Turkish Land Forces pilots trained by TAI, showing capabilities of T129A to public and media.

The pilots trained for T129A is going to be able to operate T129B variant as well. Their cockpit designs will also be same. With commencement of B variant deliveries, Modernization of A Ataks will also be upgraded to B1. I mean, There will not be a variant of A in following years. It is T129B2 variant that will have some structural modifications on fuselage.

Those are only self protection electronic warfare suits to be integrated on B1 which make B1 prevent to be a likely target of IIR/Lazer/Radar guided missiles.

Which brings us back to the key question of whether the T 129B is available now to procure for an export order. The answer is in the negative as you have the needs of the TA to be fulfilled first. Therefore it is not the platform for now but for some years down the line possibly even post 2020. PA needs to rationalize its helo support and needs to adopt one basic platform with in house repair/ overhaul facilities and T129 may be a choice in the future but not now. The MI series fits our scenario with commonality between 17s, 35s and 28NEs. We already have depot level maintenance and overhaul facilities in house and parts can be procured from Ukraine and China amongst other nations even if the Red bear decides to get angry with us.
Araz

 

[-SINAN-]

The answer is in the negative as you have the needs of the TA to be fulfilled first.

If there is no concern except delivery date, you should ask this question to TAI instead of making assumptions.

 

[araz]

If there is no concern except delivery date, you should ask this question to TAI instead of making assumptions.

Sinan and Cabatli.
I don't have any objection to the T129 and in fact I think it is a really good platform. However I genuinely don't know when they will be able to deliver to an export order. From a general assumption of an new platform needing to fulfill local demand I have assumed a 5 yr time as a conservative estimate. It might be sooner or later but the problem for PA is NOW. Which is why I have made an assumption of two different platforms and then tried to find rationale for a buy for PA. It is a logical way of doing things as far as I have understood the situation. I wanted to clarify the above before we went ahead. Please by all means negate the logic of my statement as this is how I will learn as well as other less informed members like me .

 

[cabatli_53]

TAI is running on foreign tenders and exhibiting Atak copter on almost every international defence fairs. The last tender Atak participated is Polish one and Turkish officials are trying to prepare a delicious offer to meet Poland requirements as a rival of Apache and Tiger. I mean Turkey has capability of delivering Atak on both Turkish Land Forces and an ally country simultaneously. The capacity of production brands can easily be adopted to carry out such a requirement.

Secondly, T129 is developed on battle proven Italian Mangusta fuselage with longer and wider and powerfull body aspects. Current Atak is much more capable and powerfull copter than Mangusta in every items you can imagine. All those makes Atak a level of matured and proven platform Even If It has a new developed copter in the hands of Turkish army.

The flying characteristics and long trial phase actually summarize many things about How matured platform Atak is.

During trials;

- T-129A Atak flown 3,200h
- Fired 5,000 unguided 2,75 inch rockets
- Fired 42,000 munitions

I think The number of munitions Atak fired during only trials were not fired by European Tiger and S. African Rooivalk copters within all their active lifes.

From time of induction to Army to current, The flyings are being proceeded by Army pilots. From 2011 to current, There is not a single malfunction report regarding Atak. That's why Atak has a special copter in many aspects because Turkish geography needs a special and powerfull copters to be able to fought against all type of threats.

On rough, high and hot mountainous areas of S. East: PKK, PYD and YPG terorists
Long flat plains of South: Syrian threats, tanks
The modern threats of West, N. West: Greek Leopard 2A6, Surface to Air Missiles and Apache copters (That's why Atak is able to fire Air to Air missiles as well)

Turkey doesn't have luxury to play chance games over war machines so The systems developed should host top level of technology which provide either similar or more capabilities than rivals to Turkish army.

 

[A2Z]

T-129 has american components and will always have the threat of sanctions and if not that spares might become a problem as well. We can trust Turkey but can afford to trust USA as Uncle Sam has found a new friend in India.
Go for Mi to fill the gaps and for future Z-10 with TOT would be the best option.

 

[porris]

iS TURKEY DEVELOPING ITS OWN hELICOPTER ENGINE DOMESTICALLY

 

[zeeshanvita]

iS TURKEY DEVELOPING ITS OWN hELICOPTER ENGINE DOMESTICALLY

sari raat heer ranjha sunaya subha uth kai poocha heer larki thee ya larka...lol

 

[princefaisal]

Turkish PM will be coming in the mid of February 2015 to discuss the military cooperation. May be we can hear some good outcome.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Is Pakistan looking to privatize its military manufacturing sector?

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Is Pakistan looking to privatize its military manufacturing sector?

highly doubted on privatization of main defence industry .... but firms like GIDS , AWC , ID might have private investment

 

[black-hawk_101]

highly doubted on privatization of main defence industry .... but firms like GIDS , AWC , ID might have private investment

Yes GIDS is private.

 

[cabatli_53]

T129 Atak first export costumer is an undisclosed country.

CİRİT has also been integrated on the Turkish Army’s T-129 ATAK helicopter, and the T-129s ordered by the type’s first, as yet undisclosed, export customer.

Laser rocket is on target [IDX15D2] - IHS Jane's 360