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Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

Yes but something has to be done as we operate big number of 380 T 80UD as Ukraine can't supply engines and upgrades we can't just throw them out of service they are as good as VT 4 Infact better than Al Khalid tanks
320* were bought of which a very small number are not in service anymore. So maybe 310~ operational.

They are nowhere near as good as an Al-Khalid.

We can upgrade them locally very easily. Changing the powerpack is harder, but not impossible. Chinese options are there.
 
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If you would like to elaborate on this I would really appreciate it.

I always enjoy reading your posts, As I myself am not very knowledgeable about tanks but I would like to learn!
Al-Khalid had a modern (for the time) 16 Bit FCS with auto tracking and hence higher accuracy and range. T80UDs FCS is older and more basic, does not have auto-tracking. It also has a Muzzle reference system that the UD does not. They both fire the same ammo, not sure if HIT has replaced the UD barrels with their local ones (same ones as AK), if not then they’re using older KBA-3 barrels as well which aren’t as good as what AK has.

AK has more horsepower (1000 compared to 1200) so more mobile. UD originally had no thermal sights, only later some of them got Catherine FC 2nd Gen thermal sights, AK had that for the gunner from the start and has since moved on to 3rd Gen thermals. AK has an independent commanders panoramic sight, UD does not. AK has an IBMS (can be equipped to UD too). AK likely has better armor protection but I can’t say for certain on this one due to its poor ERA coverage as compared to UD.

AK has more provisions for explosion suppression and crew safety. AK has Air conditioning, which is a major, major thing in desert combat. UD does not.

There’s many more things I could probably think of, but that’s all that comes to mind right now.

One place where UD might be better are overall armor protection (when sides are included)
 
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Why?

Is it because the Russian don't have credible drones? Good God man think think think. Its Elementary
dude i don't where u are geting ur info from, In the recent luhansk offensive ukrainians employed hundreds of armoured vehicles and about 100-200 tanks, MLRS and artillery, drones were employed only in recon roles. Care to explain how do u intend to break through a layered defense line without tanks, just imagine trenches hundreds of machine gun emplacements, pillboxes, bunkers and those little bombs on those drones will do little to no damage, than u have electronic warefare and radar coverage of the area, along with short range and medium range sams, The ukrainians covered 50km in 3 days they did that on armour. Initially TB2s were successful cause russians did not think ukrainians will put up a fight, as the war dragged russians integrated their air defences and now tb2s are no where to be seen, these drones are slow, are not much manoverable and do not carry heavier payloads like the ones needed in breaking through enemy lines, they work only if u have aerial superiority and dominance in electromagnetic spectrum. if u do not have these two ur drones are f'ed, no army can achieve dominance in these two areas in initial hostilities. We saw that in karabakh it took the azeri's two months and now we are seeing the same thing in ukraine, azeri's succeeded because they had turkish koral's and ukrainians now are not seeing results because they lack electronic warfare capabilities
 
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Al-Khalid had a modern (for the time) 16 Bit FCS with auto tracking and hence higher accuracy and range. T80UDs FCS is older and more basic, does not have auto-tracking. It also has a Muzzle reference system that the UD does not. They both fire the same ammo, not sure if HIT has replaced the UD barrels with their local ones (same ones as AK), if not then they’re using older KBA-3 barrels as well which aren’t as good as what AK has.

AK has more horsepower (1000 compared to 1200) so more mobile. UD originally had no thermal sights, only later some of them got Catherine FC 2nd Gen thermal sights, AK had that for the gunner from the start and has since moved on to 3rd Gen thermals. AK has an independent commanders panoramic sight, UD does not. AK has an IBMS (can be equipped to UD too). AK likely has better armor protection but I can’t say for certain on this one due to its poor ERA coverage as compared to UD.

AK has more provisions for explosion suppression and crew safety. AK has Air conditioning, which is a major, major thing in desert combat. UD does not.

There’s many more things I could probably think of, but that’s all that comes to mind right now.

One place where UD might be better are overall armor protection (when sides are included)
after the rebuild and upgrade , do you think t80UD will have these shortcomings addressed?
 
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after the rebuild and upgrade , do you think t80UD will have these shortcomings addressed?
Some of them yes, not all. The engine is still the same, underpowered (although they have tried to put more powerful engines in some UDs), there’s still no AC and the crew protection is not upgraded much either, nor does the commander get an independent sight.

It does however get a thermal sight and an upgraded FCS/GCS along with increased reliability.
 
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Some of them yes, not all. The engine is still the same, underpowered (although they have tried to put more powerful engines in some UDs), there’s still no AC and the crew protection is not upgraded much either, nor does the commander get an independent sight.

It does however get a thermal sight and an upgraded FCS/GCS along with increased reliability.
How would you say it fares against IA's T-90s? Both seem to have the same shortcomings for the most part. Except UDs have access to better ammunition. But T-90s probably have better protection right? Speaking of which, what ERA do the UDs have?
 
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How would you say it fares against IA's T-90s? Both seem to have the same shortcomings for the most part. Except UDs have access to better ammunition. But T-90s probably have better protection right? Speaking of which, what ERA do the UDs have?
IAs T90S’ have better oversll protection I’d say, not only as better base armor but also due to somewhat better ERA coverage and placement. Both use the same ERA, Russian Kontakt-5. Some sources also say that IA uses its own Kanchan Composites on the T90S, which would also help improving protection.

T90S definitely has better forward mobility due to a higher HP and torque output, but it’s transmission is poor, giving it a slow reverse speed compared to the T80UD.

Both have the same thermal sights for the gunner, 2nd Gen Catherine FC. however Indian T90S came with them standard, PAs UDs got them recently/are still getting them.
both don’t have Thermals or independent sights for commander, only basic night vision. However with the recent upgrades PAs UDs might have better NVs for the commander.

T90S has a somewhat better FCS than the UD originally, but with PAs recent upgrades this might not be the case anymore either.

a lot of this is vague because we don’t actually know what upgrades PA made to the UDs FCS and GCS systems and how it impacts their performance. If they are just localization and reliability improvements maybe the performance is unchanged even, in which case the comparison could be different.

one major advantage for the UD is modern ammo. IAs T90S only have BM42 at best, PAs UDs can fire Naiza and BTA-4.

neither have any form of APS or laser warning receivers. Neither have many crew protection features. Neither originally had ACs, india did start a program to equip its T90S with APUs and ACs post 2016, but it’s progress is unknown to me.


overall they’re rather comparable tanks, one forms nearly 50% of the Indian fleet, the other forms less than a quarter of ours, at the end of the day what really matters is how they’re used.
 
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According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 550mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.

If that is right vt4 is stop gap or we just dont have any option ?
 
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According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 550mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.

If that is right vt4 is stop gap or we just dont have any option ?
New ERA and APS for VT4 is about to get operationalized.
 
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According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 630mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.
New ERA and APS for VT4 is about to get operationalized.
Will it be better ? Why couldnt we add same space armour around turret to AK add APS and AORAK MK2 to make AK better than buying new tanks ?
 
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According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 550mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.

If that is right vt4 is stop gap or we just dont have any option ?
Every number in this paragraph is inaccurate. Sorry.

According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 630mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.

Will it be better ? Why couldnt we add same space armour around turret to AK add APS and AORAK MK2 to make AK better than buying new tanks ?
AORAK MK2 does not exist. It is just AORAK.
Protection numbers of AK are not known, with or without ERA, nor are those of VT4 apart from some hints from Thai trials which were conducted with FYII and not FYIV.
VT4 is better protected from basically every angle than AK. AORAK is comparable to Kontakt-5 in its older models. Newer K5 (K-5 with newer inserts) is better than AORAK. But PA and IA only use older K5 on its T80UD/90S. VT4 uses FYIV which is considerably superior to both. AK will eventually use FYIV too.

Protection of AK and AK-1 is 100% identical.
 
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IAs T90S’ have better oversll protection I’d say, not only as better base armor but also due to somewhat better ERA coverage and placement. Both use the same ERA, Russian Kontakt-5. Some sources also say that IA uses its own Kanchan Composites on the T90S, which would also help improving protection.

T90S definitely has better forward mobility due to a higher HP and torque output, but it’s transmission is poor, giving it a slow reverse speed compared to the T80UD.

Both have the same thermal sights for the gunner, 2nd Gen Catherine FC. however Indian T90S came with them standard, PAs UDs got them recently/are still getting them.
both don’t have Thermals or independent sights for commander, only basic night vision. However with the recent upgrades PAs UDs might have better NVs for the commander.

T90S has a somewhat better FCS than the UD originally, but with PAs recent upgrades this might not be the case anymore either.

a lot of this is vague because we don’t actually know what upgrades PA made to the UDs FCS and GCS systems and how it impacts their performance. If they are just localization and reliability improvements maybe the performance is unchanged even, in which case the comparison could be different.

one major advantage for the UD is modern ammo. IAs T90S only have BM42 at best, PAs UDs can fire Naiza and BTA-4.

neither have any form of APS or laser warning receivers. Neither have many crew protection features. Neither originally had ACs, india did start a program to equip its T90S with APUs and ACs post 2016, but it’s progress is unknown to me.


overall they’re rather comparable tanks, one forms nearly 50% of the Indian fleet, the other forms less than a quarter of ours, at the end of the day what really matters is how they’re used.
Both ud and 90S have 1a45t Irtysh fcs. Asrf has done a decent upgrade on it lately. It was displayed in ideas 16.

Majority of IA 90s stil use 840hp v92$2 powerpack. UD uses 1000hp 6td
None of IAs 90s came standard with Catherine FC. Same with uds. Both had primitive Agava sights.
Theres no new or old k5 era. Both mbts feature it. 90M/MS features Relikt era but it's not with IA yet.

According to vt4 producers the overall tank protection is normal. At max is 700mm with era which is lower than AK which has around 630mm at max without era so adding aorak which according to some theories is slightly better than kontakt version unknown to Pak army. So AK-i has around 750 to 780mm tank protection.

Will it be better ? Why couldnt we add same space armour around turret to AK add APS and AORAK MK2 to make AK better than buying new tanks ?
950mm for vt4 with fy4 era at turret front. 840mm for AK1 at turret front with fy4. Big difference.

Bt4 and sejjeel apfsds reach 650mm with ease at 2000m. Both can be fired by all 125mm guns in PA.

Rest in peace IA armor.
 
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