What's new

Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

And Ukraine and Armenia wars?? Tanks got decimated. U think their planner never thought of that? Its also down to availability and range.

Both in Ukraine and Armenia, tanks were not used adequately in combined arms warfare.

It's a well documented fact that the Armenians failed miserably in combined arms warfare due to poor training and bad use of terrain.
Nagorno Karabakh is terrible tank terrain anyway.


As for Russia in Ukraine, their tank doctrines were thrown out of the window. You would often see lone tanks charging enemy positions without infantry support or even air support for that matter. A tank can only be eliminated by an ATGM if the infantry have not done their job, or are not present. Javelins essentially become useless if infantry is advancing at an adequate distance in front of the tank column to clear the routes from mines and ambushes.
 
.
Traditiional mechannical/tank brigades are outdated in lieu of the introduction of small slow flying drones and ATGM.

Lessons from Ukraines shows that detection and destruction of small drones need re-thinking. Specialised equipment to be accompany modern doctrinised tank battalions would be mixing in a couple of drone-detection and jamming vehicles and laser air defence vehicles, and also radar guided multi-barrels 20mm/25mm/30mm guns + manpads air defense vehicles. You might also want to have a few suicide drones launching vehicles as well to destroy enemy;s drones and ATGM positions.

And you need good scout vehicles and recon drones to acompany your tanks and detect and fire first before enemy's ATGM fire on you.

A column "purely" consist of only tanks, apcs and IFV are vulnerable and will not survive for long in 21st century warfare.

Time has changed, armoured column deployment doctrine should also be changed. Main battle tanks have lose the Alpha-Males status. It badly needs protection from other figthing vehicles.
 
Last edited:
.
Both in Ukraine and Armenia, tanks were not used adequately in combined arms warfare.

It's a well documented fact that the Armenians failed miserably in combined arms warfare due to poor training and bad use of terrain.
Nagorno Karabakh is terrible tank terrain anyway.


As for Russia in Ukraine, their tank doctrines were thrown out of the window. You would often see lone tanks charging enemy positions without infantry support or even air support for that matter. A tank can only be eliminated by an ATGM if the infantry have not done their job, or are not present. Javelins essentially become useless if infantry is advancing at an adequate distance in front of the tank column to clear the routes from mines and ambushes.
After that indo-pak blunder where tank groups were destroyed by platoon and gnat fighter. I hope Pakistan has doctrine to have infantry and tanks work together and not separate.
 
.
Traditiional mechannical/tank brigades are outdated in lieu of the introduction of small slow flying drones and ATGM.

Lessons from Ukraines shows that detection and destruction of small drones need re-thinking. Specialised equipment to be accompany modern doctrinised tank battalions would be mixing in a couple of drone-detection and jamming vehicles and laser air defence vehicles, and also radar guided multi-barrels 20mm/25mm/30mm guns + manpads air defense vehicles. You might also want to have a few suicide drones launching vehicles as well to destroy enemy;s drones and ATGM positions.

And you need good scout vehicles and recon drones to acompany your tanks and detect and fire first before enemy's ATGM fire on you.

A column "purely" consist of only tanks, apcs and IFV are vulnerable and will not survive for long in 21st century warfare.

Time has changed, armoured column deployment doctrine should also be changed. Main battle tanks have lose the Alpha-Males status. It badly needs protection from other figthing vehicles.
Tanks need Anti drone Guns attached or something like that to target short range drones, Top attack APS, Camera be integrated with Computer vision and AI to detect drones from frames.
 
.
For the moment, lets see which projectile wins the race....460 mm vs 650 mm or even 720 mm...serious development in hand.
720mm is news to me. Local round or foreign? Fitting it in carousel won't be a problem for AK1 and VT4 and UDs 6ets40 as they all can house rounds upto 750mm in length. If the 720mm one is longer that, it won't fit the autoloader.
 
.
Both in Ukraine and Armenia, tanks were not used adequately in combined arms warfare.

It's a well documented fact that the Armenians failed miserably in combined arms warfare due to poor training and bad use of terrain.
Nagorno Karabakh is terrible tank terrain anyway.


As for Russia in Ukraine, their tank doctrines were thrown out of the window. You would often see lone tanks charging enemy positions without infantry support or even air support for that matter. A tank can only be eliminated by an ATGM if the infantry have not done their job, or are not present. Javelins essentially become useless if infantry is advancing at an adequate distance in front of the tank column to clear the routes from mines and ambushes.
Anyone who thinks drones have made tanks outdated does not understand the first thing about combined arms warfare. And anyone who tries to apply Ukrainian and Armenian examples to the india-Pakistan theatre doesn’t know the first thing about India-Pakistan battle orders. It’s useless to argue with these people, believe me I’ve tried.

If we went along with their analysis, the tank has gone extinct multiple times now. Once after WW1, once after WW2, once when Modern CAS and Gunships were invented, once when modern ATGMs were invented and the list goes on and on, and yet the tank just keeps getting more potent and more useful.

Drones don’t make tanks obsolete or extinct, drones reinforce the need for combined arms warfare where tanks and SHORADs can cover each other.

Traditiional mechannical/tank brigades are outdated in lieu of the introduction of small slow flying drones and ATGM.

Lessons from Ukraines shows that detection and destruction of small drones need re-thinking. Specialised equipment to be accompany modern doctrinised tank battalions would be mixing in a couple of drone-detection and jamming vehicles and laser air defence vehicles, and also radar guided multi-barrels 20mm/25mm/30mm guns + manpads air defense vehicles. You might also want to have a few suicide drones launching vehicles as well to destroy enemy;s drones and ATGM positions.

And you need good scout vehicles and recon drones to acompany your tanks and detect and fire first before enemy's ATGM fire on you.

A column "purely" consist of only tanks, apcs and IFV are vulnerable and will not survive for long in 21st century warfare.

Time has changed, armoured column deployment doctrine should also be changed. Main battle tanks have lose the Alpha-Males status. It badly needs protection from other figthing vehicles.
Except there is no concept of tank columns in modern tank doctrine, that has been obsolete since the 70s. The standard mechanized or armored push has always contained scouts, SHORAD, air cover, infantry and artillery. Ukraine and Armenia are two very poor examples of modern tank doctrine, since said doctrine was not employed in either conflict.

Tanks are no obsolete and are still the single most important battle implement on the ground after perhaps infantry itself. No drone will ever change that fact, it will only change the way tanks and SHORADs are used.


Tanks were never intended to be used alone or in columns, not even in WW1 when they were first used, they were always meant to be infantry support vehicles, operating Them without air and infantry cover is akin to sacrificing them on an altar, that’s what’s going on in Ukraine, it’s not that drones have suddenly become so powerful.
 
Last edited:
.
And Ukraine and Armenia wars?? Tanks got decimated. U think their planner never thought of that? Its also down to availability and range.
Bad examples. Armenia lacked any SHORADs to begin with (not the case in Indo-Pak) and Russia displayed extremely poor tank doctrine by sending its SHORADs and tanks into battles separately. Drones are extremely vulnerable to any kind of MANPAD, SHORAD or fighter jet and can only be used in an area where you have air superiority. That’s why they’ve been successful in ukraine and Armenia, because the conditions were right for them. Such conditions will absolutely not be available to them in India and Pakistan where any drone trying to attack an armored column will be seen and shot the moment it takes off.

Yes drones have their usefulness in our theatre too, but they are as reliant on the support of fighter jets as tanks are on SHORADs. They are not making tanks obsolete, such is just wishful thinking. Not even the biggest investors in drones are giving up on MBTs.
 
.
I
720mm is news to me. Local round or foreign? Fitting it in carousel won't be a problem for AK1 and VT4 and UDs 6ets40 as they all can house rounds upto 750mm in length. If the 720mm one is longer that, it won't fit the autoloader.
I was actually referring to penetration.
 
.
Both in Ukraine and Armenia, tanks were not used adequately in combined arms warfare.

It's a well documented fact that the Armenians failed miserably in combined arms warfare due to poor training and bad use of terrain.
Nagorno Karabakh is terrible tank terrain anyway.


As for Russia in Ukraine, their tank doctrines were thrown out of the window. You would often see lone tanks charging enemy positions without infantry support or even air support for that matter. A tank can only be eliminated by an ATGM if the infantry have not done their job, or are not present. Javelins essentially become useless if infantry is advancing at an adequate distance in front of the tank column to clear the routes from mines and ambushes.
Oh dear
 
. .
Tanks need Anti drone Guns attached or something like that to target short range drones, Top attack APS, Camera be integrated with Computer vision and AI to detect drones from frames.

Guardian Angel!

Essentially when facing an attack drone the defending side needs hovering/loitering drones both in front and rear... tracking, blinding or neutralizing incoming ones.

You cannot or should not rely on manned positions for what is essentially a disposable object.
 
. .
Bad examples. Armenia lacked any SHORADs to begin with (not the case in Indo-Pak) and Russia displayed extremely poor tank doctrine by sending its SHORADs and tanks into battles separately. Drones are extremely vulnerable to any kind of MANPAD, SHORAD or fighter jet and can only be used in an area where you have air superiority. That’s why they’ve been successful in ukraine and Armenia, because the conditions were right for them. Such conditions will absolutely not be available to them in India and Pakistan where any drone trying to attack an armored column will be seen and shot the moment it takes off.

Yes drones have their usefulness in our theatre too, but they are as reliant on the support of fighter jets as tanks are on SHORADs. They are not making tanks obsolete, such is just wishful thinking. Not even the biggest investors in drones are giving up on MBTs.
I think the PA and PAF drone focus is on surveillance as far as the East is concerned while the strike element is secondary.
 
.
I think the PA and PAF drone focus is on surveillance as far as the East is concerned while the strike element is secondary.
I believe it's the other way around. It's just that the surveillance capability was acquired first. Otherwise, as far as present day use is concerned, it's a perfect balance.
 
.
I

I was actually referring to penetration.
720 mm penetration will require significant work, perhaps a new longer tungsten rod maybe needed. Is this the case with the newer round?
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom