Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

[iLION12345_1]

I am not asking you to tell me everything. Again you forget what is spaced Armour. Sending me pic where it says Old Type 59 cast turret with reshaping plates and vice versa. That is because there actual purpose was to install plates in such way that era can be installed on them. But that does not negate my claim it is an spaced armor that is protecting the actually turret bubble canopy. Hence, it is spaced armor too.

The hollow space between the plates increases the shell's travel time, thus reducing the charge's penetrating power.

This is definition of space Armour. Hence, it benefits Al-ZARRAR due to installation of plates it creates an hollow space between the actually turret and new cast plates over turret.

View attachment 926385

Check the definition of spaced Armour anywhere and you will get examples like above tank.



I am trying to tell you the same that its better than what Indians currently have fielded specially AK and VT4. Dont care about Russian tanks military operational tanks.

Alzarrar's turret didn't pop off that according to you was penetrated by spg9 that means its ammunition was stored properly than t72. During WOT in Waziristan how many tanks of Pakistan army were disabled or destroyed ? that tells you the quality of the tanks and tactics used by Pak Fauj. Alhamdulillah they performed well.

Agreed with the chinese turret frontal arc issue.

Quoting from https://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/11/chinese-tank-composite-armor.html

A problem of the Chinese tank design is the armor layout. Most tanks are designed with full armor protection along the frontal 60° arc (±30° from the turret centerline), because statistically between 60 and 80% of all hits (depending on conflict and measurement methodology) occur in this arc. Tanks like the Challenger 1/2, Leopard 2, the Leclerc and the M1 Abrams not only have thick frontal armor, but also turret side armor designed to provide the equivalent thickness when attacked from a 30° angle. Tanks following the Soviet tank design philosophy, such as the T-72, T-90, T-84 and the PT-91 don't feature composite armor at the turret sides, but the overlapping frontal armor and the turret geometry make sure, that the weak side armor is not exposed when being attacked along the frontal 60° arc.

no offense, but until you get the basics down, there is no point in me replying to all that’s wrong with this. Sorry.

Half the time your contradicting yourself, half the time you’re going back on what you said before. And half of it is just factually wrong.

 

[alimobin memon]

no offense, but until you get the basics down, there is no point in me replying to all that’s wrong with this. Sorry.

Half the time your contradicting yourself, half the time you’re going back on what you said before. And half of it is just factually wrong.

I am editing this post to admit that I had wrong information and your older posts from last year and some other members cleared it.

Chinese tanks have issues that means Pakistani tanks too. but vt4 has somewhat reduced those issues in protection wise.

 

[sparten]

But problem is IMO we don't have any significant air power

PAF has the ability to strike upto 2500KM from base, that's significant by any standards.

I would rather have PA operate al zarrar old tanks and get extra squadron of j10 instead of getting 500 modern tanks or gunships (again very vulnerable to man portable SAMs) simply because IAF vastly is superior to PAF and that's what would matter in Pakistan India war

We saw how tanks did recently in Syria and Russia

Yes. We invested in very long range fires, layered GBAD, LRBVRAAM, AEW, and HALE and MALE for the fun of it.
It will be the job of these guys to make sure it doesn't happen. Missiles will target IAF bases to degrade their strike capacity, PAF jets will defend the airspace above the armoured formations, while the organic AD will provide additional cover.

Everything operates as part of a system.

 

[PanzerKiel]

APS, SAPS and enhance penetration rounds with more than 650 mm penetration are talk of the day now.

 

[SQ8]

APS, SAPS and enhance penetration rounds with more than 650 mm penetration are talk of the day now.

considering the number of ATGMs on the other side that makes sense - unfortunately, not much can be done about top attack ones.

Is the other side up armoring? 650 seems overkill for the Baseline Bhishma

 

[PanzerKiel]

considering the number of ATGMs on the other side that makes sense - unfortunately, not much can be done about top attack ones.

Is the other side up armoring? 650 seems overkill for the Baseline Bhishma

Till the time both armies donot bear the real brunt of top attack ATGMs, they will not act....slow thinkers on both sides.

The other side's ERA packages are good as well.....its like usual...both sides racing....on the final day, apart from these paper sheet specs, firer training will also matter, the angle of impact will also matter as well.....and if its jamming all around, its good bye to both sides' RF ATGMs.

 

[SQ8]

Till the time both armies donot bear the real brunt of top attack ATGMs, they will not act....slow thinkers on both sides.

The other side's ERA packages are good as well.....its like usual...both sides racing....on the final, apart from these paper sheet specs, firer training will also matter, the angle of impact will also matter as well.....and if its jamming all around, its good bye to both sides' RF ATGMs.

Good point - it seems when all these discussions are had on armor and round penetration is assumption somehow is that the round comes in perpendicular everytime when my guess is that its less than 5% of the time. Especially when moving targets are concerned and the gunner needing to land a round from 2000yd out it can hit anywhere, or an edge and bounce off - for all the serendipitous happenings it could straight into the thinnest part or land at an acute angle at the thickest armor.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Good point - it seems when all these discussions are had on armor and round penetration is assumption somehow is that the round comes in perpendicular everytime when my guess is that its less than 5% of the time. Especially when moving targets are concerned and the gunner needing to land a round from 2000yd out it can hit anywhere, or an edge and bounce off - for all the serendipitous happenings it could straight into the thinnest part or land at an acute angle at the thickest armor.

Artillery and mortar round impacts all around, dust clouds, bushes and trees to entangle ATGM wires, and then your own vulnerability to tank gun and 12.7 mm MGs once you are tracking a tank for more than 20 seconds is a hell of a task. Thats where F and F, LOBL and LOAL missiles prove good.....

 

[Bilal.]

APS, SAPS and enhance penetration rounds with more than 650 mm penetration are talk of the day now.

What about the 720mm and 850mm you once mentioned?

 

[PanzerKiel]

What about the 720mm and 850mm you once mentioned?

Trials, trials and more trials....

 

[SQ8]

Artillery and mortar round impacts all around, dust clouds, bushes and trees to entangle ATGM wires, and then your own vulnerability to tank gun and 12.7 mm MGs once you are tracking a tank for more than 20 seconds is a hell of a task. Thats where F and F, LOBL and LOAL missiles prove good.....

I remember a neighbor of mine who was from armor and came over while as a kid I was watching a documentary on vcr on attack helis - commented on a scene showing Bo-105s using their sights in dense fog and he laughed “These guys only have bad weather and boggy marshes to train their crews on - we have that, and sandstorm deserts in 55 degrees with mud and sticky rain that films up our sights so I have to send a guy out in fire to clean it”

 

[Princeps Senatus]

considering the number of ATGMs on the other side that makes sense - unfortunately, not much can be done about top attack ones.

Is the other side up armoring? 650 seems overkill for the Baseline Bhishma

GL6 should to be able to deal with top attack munitions.

T-90S is supposed to offer upwards of 800mm protection against KE with ERA (at full effectiveness). So I wouldn't say it's overkill. It all depends on how much Kontakt-5 can degrade the penetration of this particular round.

 

[farooqbhai007]

APS, SAPS and enhance penetration rounds with more than 650 mm penetration are talk of the day now.

Picture hojayey to maza aajayey

 

[iLION12345_1]

GL6 should to be able to deal with top attack munitions.

T-90S is supposed to offer upwards of 800mm protection against KE with ERA (at full effectiveness). So I wouldn't say it's overkill. It all depends on how much Kontakt-5 can degrade the penetration of this particular round.

APS systems are always a last resort. The first line of protection for an MBT against ATGMs and other AT threats is combined arms warfare. GL6 Will definitely help, but it does not make a tank impervious, especially not against a top attack munition. Maybe the tank will still drive and the crew will survive, but you would likely lose your sensors and optics in that case, effectively making the tank useless. A mobility kill is equally possible by hitting the tracks at the right angle.

You’re right about the T90S however, people here underrate it’s protection a lot, it’s still the second most highly armored MBT in the sub-continent, only now PAs ammunition is getting to a point where they can hope to get through its armor frontally.