Pakistan Air Force will have to operate from Afghanistan to escape S-400: Senior Indian MoD official

[Viper0011.]

Besides if Pakistan possessed HARMs Pakistan wouldn't go for Brazilian MAR-1s

Pakistan can never upgrade, reproduce or tamper with HARM. Simialrly, India can't change a freaking switch inside the POSEIDON either. The US inspectors will find tampered seals and you get sanctions or suspension and serious fines from the US government.

And yes, I know India is buddies with the US to squeeze out all of our jobs, tech, etc. But it doesn't matter. The Britts and the French can't toy with our stuff either. The French still use the Hawkeye as their carrier based AEW platform. They've asked to buy TOT many times but the US refused. As a result, all overhauls, etc, and upgrades take place through LM. That's the law.

Now knowing this, why the hell would Pakistan want to either trigger sanctions or violate the US law and be in trouble.

But since they wanted their own platform so they got Mar-1 and the Chinese one, both with TOT. Now they can build and expand on this tech locally. And that means now they are no longer limited. They can do their own R&D and expand production to whatever degree they want to .

And the Mar-1, from what I've known about it, has a LOT of input from the Western systems (may be from older versions of AGM included)......but I guess no one will ever know for sure as no one clearly says so in these types of deals. But at some point, the US government banned some US companies involvement. Read below:

"
Apparently it was completed. Another obstacle arose in 1999 When the Brazilian government tried to make the purchase of spiral antennas and some other systems for the development of the search head of the MAR-1 in a Las Vegas manufacturer,[which?] but the U.S. government banned the sale, claiming that "in is interesting for the American defense Brazil Introducing anti-radiation weapons in this region.[11] "Faced with this obstacle, the DCTA found himself with only one alternative: to develop locally seeker head.[11] This subsystem was developed and then tested with simulated emissions from a TS-100 + Systems Excalibur (0.5 to 18 GHz) and HS-125 aircraft of the flight test division of the CTA, we know that event was studied by the FAB installing sensors in similar patrol aircraft P-95 Bandeirante Patrulha.[12]

In November 2012 it was reported that an update to the missile's software was had been applied and the missile was undergoing final flight tests on an A-1/AMX strike aircraft.[13]

In December 2008 the Brazilian government approved the sale of 100 MAR-1 missiles to the Pakistan Air Force in a contract worth $108 million.[7] In April 2013 it was reported that Mectron had finished integrating the MAR-1 with Pakistani Mirage III/V strike aircraft."

SIPRI database makes no mention of AGM-88 transfers to Pakistan

And there shouldn't be. There was a LOT of stuff given to Pakistan to fight the Russians. I'd LOVE to see any database that lists those multi-billion dollar packages. In fact, I "heard" years ago that even Israel helped Pakistan on a few occasions with some stuff to defeat the Russians. Now go figure that out. Israel and Pakistan don't even have diplomatic ties

You guys from India act like little children hurt because someone took their toys, when it comes to Pakistan. Its funny as hell .

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

In fact, I "heard" years ago that even Israel helped Pakistan on a few occasions with some stuff to defeat the Russians. .

There is a bolded part is the reason why I quoted @Nattmara's post, not yours.

Unless credibility of a source exists, no one is foolish enough to rely on hearsay.

 

[Viper0011.]

There is a bolded part is the reason why I quoted @Nattmara's post, not yours.

And you totally didn't read the stuff I copied from an article about Mar-1 and the link to some US companies which were banned by the US government. Also, you know very well what "heard" in double quotes mean. No? I am disappointed. No smartness, just silly nature to argue like little children?

 

[Tank131]

I dont believe that Pakistan has HARM, but it does have MAR-1 (100km range) and CM-102 Supersonic ARM (100km) both of which have superior range to HARM.

As for S400, it is a serious threat to the PAF and should not be downplayed. But let us get some perspective and hold the nationalistic rhetoric for a second. Will it cover all of Pakistan...really...that means no-one looked at a Map. Yes it will cover a good chunk, but there are significant areas that will not be. I grant this means they will be far from the front, but that belies the real issue. There are huge swaths of area from where Pakistan will be able to launch saturation strikes against Indian S-400 sites from using Babur and BM.

Beyond this there are a few options available to the PAF that should be looked into. They are not currently in service to the PAF but they should absolutely be looked into acquiring. The USN is utilizing its growlers in trifectas to triangulate and suppress S400 systems (though usually S400 is not the only thing you have to worry about as Pantsir-S1 and Buk systems often work in tandem with it. Once located they growlers in conjunction with E-2D commence heavy electronic attacks on the system and ARM strikes along with Saturation strikes against the system with Stand off missiles like JASSM. Now PAF currently has nothing like EA-18G in service but it along with China/Turkey, should look into the development of something like the AN/ALQ-218 wideband receivers and ALQ-99 jamming pods. Now there is the KG300G, but my suspicion is, that it is not robust enough. In conjunction to their own Growler type aircraft and robust EW capabilities of their AWACs in Conjunction with MAR-1/CM-102 you have a start of a solid attack on S400. In addition to this, ALL PAF fighters need to be upgraded with a strong DRFM Jamming system like BriteCloud to help enable them to survive attacks from S400 and IAF fighters.

Beyond this, PAF should look into Koral system from Turkey which is said to have the ability to electronically attack s400, but it range (i believe) is limited to 150km. This would still yield benefit for PAF in that it will push the S400 system that much further back and give breathing room to the PAF.

Additionally, with the detection range of S400 , it is imperative that PAF pursue a 5th Gen solution along the lines of FC-31, TFX, what have you, and enable internal carriage of a 300km range missile (i.e. Ra'ad or something like Joint strike missile). The ability to attack low flying targets flying just off the deck is somewhat overstated, and these weapons will still be effective against S400 in numbers. In conjunction with Koral and EW attacks form AWACs and Growler version of JF-17, as well as Babur/BM saturation attacks, this is the start of a suitable response to S-400. That being said, this endeavor would cost in the billions, which should shed some light on how potent this system is. The upgrade of the EA-18 Growler is designed to target the S400.

One of the most effective responses will be to acquire strong integrated air defense networks, especially to cover the area of Pakistan under S400 range in numerous layers of protection to give the PAF more breathing room. This starts with the acquisition of HQ-9 and HQ-16, and integration of Aspide2000.

The effectiveness of these steps can be tested by performing exercises with China when they get their s400s in 8-14 months and further tactics anc be developed from there.

 

[Valkyrie]

Quoting a comment from
Revealed: U.S. Navy's Plan to Defeat Russia's Deadly S-400 | The National Interest Blog

"SAMs are really overrated. A common misconception is the plane is the prey(especially stealth aircraft) and the SAM is the hunter. The truth is, it is the other way around.

A missile fired in midair suffers from all sorts of drag forces in low altitudes. A air-air missile or an air-surface missile fired from a fighter doesn't suffer those drag consequences. It boosts up in the air and gravity and the fins glide it on the target. SAMs are indeed bigger, but in no way shape of form better against maneuvering targets.

Don't believe it? The S-400 40N6 missile only has a range of 400 km. And this missile is only for bombers, AWACs etc. not fighters like F-22, F-35, F-16 etc. This is due to the 40N6's sacrifice for a large fuel payload to achieve these ranges with speed. However it lacks the turning capability against a fighter. The most maneuverable missile is the 9M6E3 series on the S-400 which is only limited to around 120 km. It has excellent maneuverability because its a perfect fit of everything. And keep in mind these are max ranges, against a moving target trying to evade is much less. For example a F-15 back in the Gulf War's AIM-7 missile can go 70 km at least. However realistically, max ranges would almost never be used due to enemy fighters maneuvering so the F-15 usually fired around 20 km.

The United States has the JAASM capable of a 1000 km range outranging any Russian SAM. Plus the 500 km capable JSOW, and 150 km capable HARMs.

The thing SAMs has is surprise. They can hide in a bunch of clutter and terrain while planes cannot. The enemy fighter has to hunt them down with advanced tech which is difficult. The fighter has the weapons range while the SAM has the cover. If the fighter spots the enemy the SAM is screwed, if the fighter doesn't it comes within the jaws of the enemy."

 

[bedbin]

Adam ol

 

[That Guy]

Welp, looks like PAF may start investing in more MAR-1 missiles.

 

[tarrar]

Ok, another Indian jabroni on the lose & colorful title, "PAF will have to operate from Afghanistan to escape s-400". Jabroni Indians can't live in peace even when they are in their Bollywood dream world.

 

[Khafee]

Confirmation on HARM:

How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ?? | Page 4

 

[Jamwal's]

Here's what will happen. Pakistan will put in a few hundreds of their cheap as* high speed target drones which emit Mirage and F-7's radar frequencies for Target practice and to confuse other radars.

The S-400's will be chasing those down to Afghanistan or right at the border, doesn't really matter. After the S-400's have obtained locks (which would take like a few seconds post firing due to close proximity), the second layer behind the target drones will be ready for CAPs and defensive sorties. Not to mention, the location of all launchers will be tracked obviously and plenty of stand off munitions like Mar-M1, HARM, etc, will be on their way to take out the radars.

I guess India will need to call the Russians to send an Antonov with a fresh supply of missiles, which would take a few days, and a few days to ship to where the launchers may be. By then, either the war would be over due to big daddy hushing every child in the room up, or the children would go MAD!!

What's the benefit of S-400 in this scenario? Back to the planet earth guys, let's talk about some real things. The S-400 can cause issues for a few jets pre-conflict, or in a smaller conflict where you may have a few jets involved and not a full scale war (that's what I explained above).

Note to the OP is that Pakistan also has FD-2000, which are a derivative of the S-300 system. So should the Pakistanis be thinking that Indian AF will be operating all their jets past Bombay towards the Sri Lankan side to avoid these? These are silly statements to make and childish emotional statements.

No one is a child and stupid like the OP or the person making such comment thinks. The Pakistanis have contained India for 6+ decades and they'll continue to do so in the future also. That much, I can guarantee as that's their number 1 national security priority



Pakistan also has US built HARM's (top line, nothing beats them and they can be used as a plug in with DRFM, the main tech that's the most sensitive piece in the block 52). Plus, the PAF operates Mectron's M1, and a couple of the Chinese options also. Whether India grows 50% more or remains the same, there ain't going to be 5000 launching batteries . The few dozen, with today's tech (Erieye, KE AEW) and F-16's with options described above, can easily be taken out, from like 80-100 miles away......

When you people come back to planet earth and the bloating stops, write a response with some facts so we can have a knowledgeable debate. Otherwise, I don't really like to deal with adult internet warriors, or emotional children writing sensational Indian movies type statements. This isn't a movie review of some Bollywood movie, its a defense forum, in case you forgot

Stop blabbering, where did i mentioned what Pak have and what she don't.Learn to read properly before quoting me in your useless posts.

My post was about Indian Harop, Harpy and Chinese HQ 9 stationed in Tibet.

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer HARM is in the PAF inventory. Right?

@Khafee

Cruise Missiles

Land Attack

• Babur
• Ra'ad
• AS-30L
• AGM-65 Maverick

Anti-Ship

• CM-400AKG Wrecker
• C-803
• C-802
• Exocet
• AGM-84 Harpoon

Anti-Radiation

• MAR-1
• AGM-88 HARM
• AGM-45 Shrike

 

[randomradio]

Excellent for us. The probability of destroying such systems increase manifold if they are next to our borders or in our artillery range.

NATO has better artillery. What makes you think artillery will destroy SAMs?

Will not works. When it can miss 6 to 7 randomly fired home made rockets, as witnessed in Gaza, it will in no way in hell can counter, 100s of simultaneously incoming shells. One shell if landed even in proximity is good enough to damage sophisticated equipment.

It's been designed for that use.

You need to get lucky for one shell to hit something. Probably 1 in 100000.

Quoting a comment from
Revealed: U.S. Navy's Plan to Defeat Russia's Deadly S-400 | The National Interest Blog

"SAMs are really overrated. A common misconception is the plane is the prey(especially stealth aircraft) and the SAM is the hunter. The truth is, it is the other way around.

A missile fired in midair suffers from all sorts of drag forces in low altitudes. A air-air missile or an air-surface missile fired from a fighter doesn't suffer those drag consequences. It boosts up in the air and gravity and the fins glide it on the target. SAMs are indeed bigger, but in no way shape of form better against maneuvering targets.

Don't believe it? The S-400 40N6 missile only has a range of 400 km. And this missile is only for bombers, AWACs etc. not fighters like F-22, F-35, F-16 etc. This is due to the 40N6's sacrifice for a large fuel payload to achieve these ranges with speed. However it lacks the turning capability against a fighter. The most maneuverable missile is the 9M6E3 series on the S-400 which is only limited to around 120 km. It has excellent maneuverability because its a perfect fit of everything. And keep in mind these are max ranges, against a moving target trying to evade is much less. For example a F-15 back in the Gulf War's AIM-7 missile can go 70 km at least. However realistically, max ranges would almost never be used due to enemy fighters maneuvering so the F-15 usually fired around 20 km.

The United States has the JAASM capable of a 1000 km range outranging any Russian SAM. Plus the 500 km capable JSOW, and 150 km capable HARMs.

The thing SAMs has is surprise. They can hide in a bunch of clutter and terrain while planes cannot. The enemy fighter has to hunt them down with advanced tech which is difficult. The fighter has the weapons range while the SAM has the cover. If the fighter spots the enemy the SAM is screwed, if the fighter doesn't it comes within the jaws of the enemy."

Lot of incorrect conclusions here.

A missile like the 40N6 does top attack when dealing with aircraft. It climbs to altitude and then drops down towards the target. And the 40N6 is capable of attacking aircraft. It is heavily reliant on speed rather than manveurability.

Missiles like the JASSM and JSOW can't work against the S-400 because of the insanely huge time to target. The targeted S-400 can stow and redeploy elsewhere within that time.

You can't compare air to air missiles that can be fired from different altitudes to a SAM which is stuck on the ground.

To deal with low flying threats, the S-400 is connected to Awacs and Aerostats. Some carry mast mounted radars to increase LoS.

 

[ravi gupta]

The next war we will fight with India will be fought in Indian streets with India's 200 million Muslims fighting for liberty with "diplomatic and moral support" from their brothers in Pakistan.

Bhai,Aisa kuch to 1971 mai hua tha.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

Okay.

too bad after that they will never see their 200 Million Brothers

 

[Reichsmarschall]

بھارت کی طرف سے نئی بڑَک.
بھارتی وزارت دفاع کے عہدہ داروں نے ایک غیر ملکی جریدے کو بیان دیتے ہوئے کہا کہ بھارت روس سے پانچ S-400 زمین سے فضا میں مار کرنے والے دور مار میزائل خرید رہا ہے. اور پانچ میں سے تین یونٹ پاکستان کی سرحد کے ساتھ لگائے جائیں گے.
چونکہ پاکستان چوڑا,ملک نھیں, ہر پاکستانی ہوائ اڈہ چار سو کلومیٹر تک مار کرنے والے S-400 کی زد میں آجائے گا, اور بھارت پاکستانی جنگی جھازوں کو فضا میں بلند ہوتے ہی مار گرائے گا. اور جنگ کی صورت میں پاک فضا ئیہ کو S-400 سے بچنے کیلیئے افغان ہوائ اڈوں پہ اپنے جھاز منتقل کرنے پڑیں گے.

یہ پرغرور بیان داغتے ہوئے موصوف بھول گئے کہ S-400 ایک وقت میں صرف چار میزائل فائر کر سکتا ہے, اور ایک میزائل صرف ایک ہی جھاز کو مار گرا سکتا ہے. اگر بھارت پاکستان کی سرحد پہ تین یونٹ لائے تو پھر بھی ایک وقت میں بارہ s-400 سے زیادہ نھیں داغے جا سکتے. اور اس کے بعد میزائل لانچر پہ نئے میزائل لگانے میں کم از کم دس منٹ لگتے ہیں کیونکہ S-400 کے میزائل بڑے اور بھاری ہوتے ہیں.
اسلیئے حالت جنگ میں بیک وقت پوری پاک فضائیہ نھیں صرف پہلے اڑنے والے بارہ جھاز وں کیلیئے خطرہ ہوگا, جو کہ دھوکہ دھی کیلیئے ڈرون بھی ہو سکتے ہیں, بجائے اصلی جنگی جھاز کے.
اس کے بعد کے دس پندرہ منٹوں میں جب S-400 میزاٰئل داغنے کے قابل نہ ہوگا تو پاکستانی کروز میزائل یا جنگی جھاز کے زریعے S-400 کو نشانہ بنا کر تباہ کیا جا سکتا ہے.
بہر حال بڑے اور بھاری ہونے کی وجہ سے زیادہ اضافی S-400 بھی میدان جنگ میں نھیں رکھے جا سکتے. جب فی لانچر چار میزائل کے حساب سے پہلے بارہ فائر ہو گئے تو اگر بھارتیوں کو دوبارہ لوڈ کرنے کا موقع مل بھی گیا تو بارہ اور لوڈ ہو جائیں گے. اور یوں جنگ کی صورت میں زیادہ سے زیادہ پاک فضائیہ کے سب پہلے اڑنے والے چوبیس جھازوں کو خطرہ ہوگا, جو کہ دھوکہ دھی کی خاطر ریڈار پہ جنگی جھاز نظر آنے والے بغیر پائلٹ کے ڈرون بھی ہو سکتے ہیں.
یہ بات واضح رہے کہ فی الحال روس نے بھارت کو S-400 بیچنے کا کوئ اشارہ نھیں دیا اور کوئ معاہدہ نھیں کیا