Pakistan Air Force Transport

[Falcon26]

So PAF has 18 C-130 and 4 CN-235. Frankly that is woefully undersized transport fleet for a military the size of Pakistan's. It needs to be at least double that size. Additionally PAA operates 48 Mi-17 and 45 Aerospatiale Pumas for medium lift. These numbers need to be augmented with some heavy lift choppers and more medium lift choppers.

For the aircraft, getting used Hercs would be the cheapest just getting them refurbished but im not sure how many or where they are on the market. That being said to look at a comprable force size, Turkey operates 19 Hercs, 59 CN-235 and 20 C-160s. So to that end, getting more Hercs and CN-235 or Y-8/Y-9 would be very beneficial for PAF/PA/PN. This can be especially true given how the reaction time of the military in Feb was quite poor. These were tiny skirmishes. In times of war, PAF and PA will rely significantly on the ability to deploy and redeploy. Fast movements will be key.

will the Embraer C-390 Millennium ever be a serious contender? And what’s stopping Pakistan from cooperating with Brazil for aircraft manufacturing? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah exactly what I discussed with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). In addition there are some other hidden potential contenders e.g Antonov from Ukraine has similar designs.

will the Embraer C-390 Millennium ever be a serious contender? And what’s stopping Pakistan from cooperating with Brazil for aircraft manufacturing? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

will the Embraer C-390 Millennium ever be a serious contender? And what’s stopping Pakistan from cooperating with Brazil for aircraft manufacturing? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yeah exactly what I discussed with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). In addition there are some other hidden potential contenders e.g Antonov from Ukraine has similar designs.

I guess it's probably due to the PAF being in perfect tune with the Herc (like the F-16) in that it would be much, much cheaper to keep adding Hercs than to pivot to a totally new platform. As of now, scarcely few, if any, Herc users switched over to anything but a new Herc. There's a reason for that.

However, all that said and done, perhaps it would've been wiser on all parties to have used the FMF/CSF funding on 8~12 new C-130Js instead of the AH-1Z and F-16s?

Perhaps then Congress might have not cut the aid since it'd have zero direct military value (logistics is a tougher thing to cry about than Vipers and Zulus).

 

[Tank131]

Now compare that to the transport aircraft and Helo fleet of Indian military, ours is woefully inadequate

Aircraft: 11 C-17, 17 IL-76, 5 C-130J (originally 6 but 1 crashed), and a whopping 105 AN-32 which is roughly in the same class as CN-295

I guess it's probably due to the PAF being in perfect tune with the Herc (like the F-16) in that it would be much, much cheaper to keep adding Hercs than to pivot to a totally new platform. As of now, scarcely few, if any, Herc users switched over to anything but a new Herc. There's a reason for that.

However, all that said and done, perhaps it would've been wiser on all parties to have used the FMF/CSF funding on 8~12 new C-130Js instead of the AH-1Z and F-16s?

Perhaps then Congress might have not cut the aid since it'd have zero direct military value (logistics is a tougher thing to cry about than Vipers and Zulus).

Whole heartedly agree but the love that the herc enjoys is one of the reasons why PAF might HAVE to make a switch. How many countries are currently selling Hercs. Probably the only one I know outright is Brazil which is replacing them with the C-390 and they only have 9. You may find a smattering here or there but im actually unaware of many available used. That being said, as we can look at the structure that many forces use, they rely more heavily on the CN-235 and CN-295 class of aircraft. So PAF needs to add a lot in that realm too. Getting more CN may not be as hard as getting hercs.

So what options beyond Hercs exist?
Of course the aforementioned C-390 which frankly being a jet is likely to be very expensive to operate but it lifts more than the herc by a good margin and carries it further. Other options are the Y-9 which also is marginally better on paper than the Herc and is probably the most readily available alternative. And then you also have the Alenia C-27J spartan which is somewhere in between the CN-295 and the Herc.

Personally i would like to see PAF increase the Herc presence to 28-30 but dramatically increase its CN-235 numbers to around 30. Get PA few Z-8 (~10) and continue to slowly add Mi-17. To grow the number to around 65 (20 more) and need to go with the Pumas.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Why not C27 spartan which is essentially a baby C130. Or C390 from Brazil(Antonov has similar design). Instead of the CN series aircraft which don't have enough clearance or opening wide enough to allow some of types of cargo to be loaded.

We need a medium multi role helicopter program to ease some of the weight across all three services. Turks have a good candidate in form of the 10 ton utility helo which I think they are developing to replace old pumas and to supplement the Blackhawks in their fleet.

We(PAA or PAC) should sign a JV with Turks just like we did with JF17 regarding the helicopters. This helicopter may even have similar parts commonality as ATAK series.

Also this brings me to another point. Pak armed forces and govt is buying aw139. Why don't we cooperate with Turks on Gokbey which is in the same class as AW139. Provided that Gokbey provides similar SAR and hot & high performance parameters as AW139.

PAC needs to come up with new products and diversify. Not just for the armed forces but for the international market as well.

Aircraft: 11 C-17, 17 IL-76, 5 C-130J (originally 6 but 1 crashed), and a whopping 105 AN-32 which is roughly in the same class as CN-295


Whole heartedly agree but the love that the herc enjoys is one of the reasons why PAF might HAVE to make a switch. How many countries are currently selling Hercs. Probably the only one I know outright is Brazil which is replacing them with the C-390 and they only have 9. You may find a smattering here or there but im actually unaware of many available used. That being said, as we can look at the structure that many forces use, they rely more heavily on the CN-235 and CN-295 class of aircraft. So PAF needs to add a lot in that realm too. Getting more CN may not be as hard as getting hercs.

So what options beyond Hercs exist?
Of course the aforementioned C-390 which frankly being a jet is likely to be very expensive to operate but it lifts more than the herc by a good margin and carries it further. Other options are the Y-9 which also is marginally better on paper than the Herc and is probably the most readily available alternative. And then you also have the Alenia C-27J spartan which is somewhere in between the CN-295 and the Herc.

Personally i would like to see PAF increase the Herc presence to 28-30 but dramatically increase its CN-235 numbers to around 30. Get PA few Z-8 (~10) and continue to slowly add Mi-17. To grow the number to around 65 (20 more) and need to go with the Pumas.

 

[Tank131]

Why not C27 spartan which is essentially a baby C130. Or C390 from Brazil(Antonov has similar design). Instead of the CN series aircraft which don't have enough clearance or opening wide enough to allow some of types of cargo to be loaded.

We need a medium multi role helicopter program to ease some of the weight across all three services. Turks have a good candidate in form of the 10 ton utility helo which I think they are developing to replace old pumas and to supplement the Blackhawks in their fleet.

We(PAA or PAC) should sign a JV with Turks just like we did with JF17 regarding the helicopters. This helicopter may even have similar parts commonality as ATAK series.

Also this brings me to another point. Pak armed forces and govt is buying aw139. Why don't we cooperate with Turks on Gokbey which is in the same class as AW139. Provided that Gokbey provides similar SAR and hot & high performance parameters as AW139.

PAC needs to come up with new products and diversify. Not just for the armed forces but for the international market as well.

Some very good points. With respect to C390 my suspicion is the price if these aircraft will be too expensive. Their unit cost is something like $50M, granted their lift capacity is 2x that of C27J and about 5000kg more than herc. It is also a jet so far more expensive to operate and maintain.

The c27J is a very interesting aircraft. It has significantly better payload than cn235 or c295 and is marginally more expensive. And given that PAF only operates 4 CN-235 it is not a huge logistic problem to replace these with c27J. The cost of these is ~$32M per vs $25M-28M for CNs respectively. The C27J lifts 11,000kg vs 6500-7000 for the CNs. 30 of the Hercs and 30 C27J would be great for PAF.

As for the Helis, the Mi-17 is fairly inexpensive and rugged. Easy to operate. It just seems like a do it all chopper but as u stated, the Pumas are getting long in the teeth. The AW-139 payload is not in the ballpark vs Mi-17 (2100 vs 5000kg).The Gokbey is very similar and would actually work well if PA actually gets Atak (as the same indigenous engine will equip both), however the Aw139 and Gokbey are utility helicopters, not really great fir medium/heavy lift line Puma and Mi-17.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

The point regarding Gokbey vs AW139 is that instead of buying it off the shelf from italians. Make it at home through a JV with Tutks and save some forex.

Some very good points. With respect to C390 my suspicion is the price if these aircraft will be too expensive. Their unit cost is something like $50M, granted their lift capacity is 2x that of C27J and about 5000kg more than herc. It is also a jet so far more expensive to operate and maintain.

The c27J is a very interesting aircraft. It has significantly better payload than cn235 or c295 and is marginally more expensive. And given that PAF only operates 4 CN-235 it is not a huge logistic problem to replace these with c27J. The cost of these is ~$32M per vs $25M-28M for CNs respectively. The C27J lifts 11,000kg vs 6500-7000 for the CNs. 30 of the Hercs and 30 C27J would be great for PAF.

As for the Helis, the Mi-17 is fairly inexpensive and rugged. Easy to operate. It just seems like a do it all chopper but as u stated, the Pumas are getting long in the teeth. The AW-139 payload is not in the ballpark vs Mi-17 (2100 vs 5000kg).The Gokbey is very similar and would actually work well if PA actually gets Atak (as the same indigenous engine will equip both), however the Aw139 and Gokbey are utility helicopters, not really great fir medium/heavy lift line Puma and Mi-17.

 

[GriffinsRule]

C27Js are expensive to buy and operate. In fact they are almost a $100MM higher in operating costs vs a C-130 over a 25yr period. And since we already have CN-235 in operation, it makes sense to buy more of the same.
The Brazilian C390 is good and is getting it's certifications, but it's a new platform, along with the Chinese, and it's true costs outside of acquisitions is unknown. Basically the options are buy C-130Js down the line and CN235/295 as med tier.

 

[Tank131]

The point regarding Gokbey vs AW139 is that instead of buying it off the shelf from italians. Make it at home through a JV with Tutks and save some forex.

I absolutely agree with it as i said, especially if PA gets Atak when the indigenous engine is ready as it will be the same engine is powering Gokbey (currently atak uses cts800 and both Atak and Gokbey will then use TS1400). That will lend commonality accross the gunship utility chopper lines.

 

[Falcon26]

I absolutely agree with it as i said, especially if PA gets Atak when the indigenous engine is ready as it will be the same engine is powering Gokbey (currently atak uses cts800 and both Atak and Gokbey will then use TS1400). That will lend commonality accross the gunship utility chopper lines.

what do you think about the upcoming Turkish T70 helicopter?

 

[Tank131]

what do you think about the upcoming Turkish T70 helicopter?

It is basically a licensed copy of the blackhawk so its a great chopper but will likely not be allowed to export

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

what do you think about the upcoming Turkish T70 helicopter?

It is basically a licensed copy of the blackhawk so its a great chopper but will likely not be allowed to export

It's allowed for export, but it'll have to go through US approval due to ITAR. The only solace in it is that LM/Sikorsky probably book a license fee for every T-70 sold, but I don't think the PA would be interested in it -- best to avoid the US. Rather, I would keep an eye on the AW149 with the Safran Aneto engine.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

It's allowed for export, but it'll have to go through US approval due to ITAR. The only solace in it is that LM/Sikorsky probably book a license fee for every T-70 sold, but I don't think the PA would be interested in it -- best to avoid the US. Rather, I would keep an eye on the AW149 with the Safran Aneto engine.

What about the Chinese Z-20? There is a navl version too.

 

[hassan1]

 

[MIRauf]

What about the Chinese Z-20? There is a navl version too.

Not yet, they have plan for the naval version in future.