fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
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no one sure, its just a rumors by some members here, maybe it JF-17 or ,maybe F-16, nothing is confirmed @Maxpaneso credit goes to f 16
AC Kaisers information is usually accurate!so credit goes to f 16
[emoji12]we already know that
PAF needs to have a clear picture going forward for the next 2 years. IAF will be upgrading and looking for revenge. Here are a few threats they have the plan for:
1. Rafale with Meteor
2. EW assets
3. S-400
4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35.
5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??)
In dealing with these challenges, PAF should:
1. Buy as many Mirage III/Vs it can get its hands on
2. Invest in a ramjet powered BVRAAM.
3. Look to make a deal with the US for more F-16s and assorted goodies
4. Failing 3 above, look for an alternative or speed up Project Azm. Rapid prototyping is a reality in project management and there is no reason one cannot do this particularly in the presence of 3D technology and advanced CAD and fluid dynamics software.
5. Invest in a Harpy like drone capability
6. Build a basic LR-SAM that can act as an added hassle for intruding IAF aircraft. There is already a (secret) HQ-9 presence but this is guarding Kahuta. PAF needs the local scientific team to turn the Nasr base design into an LR-SAM. Something to scare away intruding enemy IAF fighters, even if they can't shoot down a maneuvering target, they can cause the enemy to drop their ordnance.
7. PAF needs to invest in two types of serious UCAVs: 1 for strike and the other for air defence. Something that can play a cameo role in the PAF air defence scheme. Even if it is a simple BVR shooter with data-links to the external sensor network.
Someone make him the cheif of PAF, cause they ones right now are sleepingPAF needs to have a clear picture going forward for the next 2 years. IAF will be upgrading and looking for revenge. Here are a few threats they have the plan for:
1. Rafale with Meteor
2. EW assets
3. S-400
4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35.
5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??)
In dealing with these challenges, PAF should:
1. Buy as many Mirage III/Vs it can get its hands on
2. Invest in a ramjet powered BVRAAM.
3. Look to make a deal with the US for more F-16s and assorted goodies
4. Failing 3 above, look for an alternative or speed up Project Azm. Rapid prototyping is a reality in project management and there is no reason one cannot do this particularly in the presence of 3D technology and advanced CAD and fluid dynamics software.
5. Invest in a Harpy like drone capability
6. Build a basic LR-SAM that can act as an added hassle for intruding IAF aircraft. There is already a (secret) HQ-9 presence but this is guarding Kahuta. PAF needs the local scientific team to turn the Nasr base design into an LR-SAM. Something to scare away intruding enemy IAF fighters, even if they can't shoot down a maneuvering target, they can cause the enemy to drop their ordnance.
7. PAF needs to invest in two types of serious UCAVs: 1 for strike and the other for air defence. Something that can play a cameo role in the PAF air defence scheme. Even if it is a simple BVR shooter with data-links to the external sensor network.
When they cross the line anything is fair, even razing of Tehran. Mark my words, Iran will cross the line again.I think your projections are too short term and not realistic in my opinion.
1. Rafale with Meteor (with deliveries commence this year but wont end until 2024-2025. Two years is not enough time for IAF to integrate the jet they are just getting in service fully or to have their doctrine updated to fully take advantage of the new technologies it offers.)
2. EW assets (will take longer than two years as they are just now going to order more homegrown EW assets and even purchasing from abroad takes time, with testing, selection, and integration)
3. S-400 (Not as big a threat as we assume if to be, especially if their situation awareness if degraded like it happened on Feb 27th. They will not want to shoot their own Su-30s and Mirages with their newly inducted 'super SAM') Also PAF is not going to be sitting on its rear end and I am sure has already been working on contingency plans to counter this threat.
4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. (Not going to be getting F-16/21 due to optics and not getting F-35s if the situation in Turkey is anything to go by. More Rafales and Tejas are their only options.)
5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??) PAF should avoid any and all offensive missions in Iran as they are a sovereign nation and we cannot and should not try to think we have any right to attack any targets inside their territory. This is not against international laws and norms, but also a very poor way of conducting oneself in foreign relations and especially in case of Pakistan where we already have two hot borders to contend with. Much more fruitful to engage with them on a diplomatic level and increase cooperation on a military level with joint task forces to fight BLA and other Indian-sponsored terrorists. This is exactly what Pakistan seems to be heading towards.
As for Afghanistan, we should also treat them as a sovereign country, and any attacks in their territory would be limited to the immediate border areas if and when our military or civilian infrastructure on the border comes under attack from Taliban or ISIS etc. And these don't need to be public information anyways.
As for the other points, I agree with you on all but two. We can not look for an alternative to AZM. Its the only way forward, come hell or high water. It might be delayed due to various
Also Pakistan has no real expertise in developing any UCAVs. One we have are Chinese and will remain so for the foreseable future. Better to buy them cheaply off the shelf and focus the energy and resources on project AZM which is the priority, make or break kind of a project for the future viability for the PAF. In fact, any other ancillary project such as weapons etc should be secondary to that. Once we have the platform, we can develop indigenous weapons and whatnot to go with it.
Over extending our limited resources (dollars and brains) across a dozen different projects will only slow everything down and make them all more prone to failure. Best to skip weapons/ldps, engines, and radars (AESA) and foucs on getting capability for the airframe first. That in itself is a huge challenge as we will need to setup new manufacturing technologies that are non-existent in Pakistan right now.
I think your projections are too short term and not realistic in my opinion.
1. Rafale with Meteor (with deliveries commence this year but wont end until 2024-2025. Two years is not enough time for IAF to integrate the jet they are just getting in service fully or to have their doctrine updated to fully take advantage of the new technologies it offers.)
2. EW assets (will take longer than two years as they are just now going to order more homegrown EW assets and even purchasing from abroad takes time, with testing, selection, and integration)
3. S-400 (Not as big a threat as we assume if to be, especially if their situation awareness if degraded like it happened on Feb 27th. They will not want to shoot their own Su-30s and Mirages with their newly inducted 'super SAM') Also PAF is not going to be sitting on its rear end and I am sure has already been working on contingency plans to counter this threat.
4. Possibly F-21 or even F-35. PAF will have a serious disadvantage if IAF gets the F-35. (Not going to be getting F-16/21 due to optics and not getting F-35s if the situation in Turkey is anything to go by. More Rafales and Tejas are their only options.)
5. The PAF should also plan for (not necessarily engage in, but have the capability for) offensive air campaigns in Afghanistan and even Iran. Some MALE UAVs would be useful here (are the Wing Loong IIs coming??) PAF should avoid any and all offensive missions in Iran as they are a sovereign nation and we cannot and should not try to think we have any right to attack any targets inside their territory. This is not against international laws and norms, but also a very poor way of conducting oneself in foreign relations and especially in case of Pakistan where we already have two hot borders to contend with. Much more fruitful to engage with them on a diplomatic level and increase cooperation on a military level with joint task forces to fight BLA and other Indian-sponsored terrorists. This is exactly what Pakistan seems to be heading towards.
As for Afghanistan, we should also treat them as a sovereign country, and any attacks in their territory would be limited to the immediate border areas if and when our military or civilian infrastructure on the border comes under attack from Taliban or ISIS etc. And these don't need to be public information anyways.
As for the other points, I agree with you on all but two. We can not look for an alternative to AZM. Its the only way forward, come hell or high water. It might be delayed due to various
Also Pakistan has no real expertise in developing any UCAVs. One we have are Chinese and will remain so for the foreseable future. Better to buy them cheaply off the shelf and focus the energy and resources on project AZM which is the priority, make or break kind of a project for the future viability for the PAF. In fact, any other ancillary project such as weapons etc should be secondary to that. Once we have the platform, we can develop indigenous weapons and whatnot to go with it.
Over extending our limited resources (dollars and brains) across a dozen different projects will only slow everything down and make them all more prone to failure. Best to skip weapons/ldps, engines, and radars (AESA) and foucs on getting capability for the airframe first. That in itself is a huge challenge as we will need to setup new manufacturing technologies that are non-existent in Pakistan right now.
Hi GriffinsRule, thanks for a thoughtful and well constructed response. Its good to have a nice discussion on PDF after so long. Please allow me to reply back in points.
Regarding UCAVs, it is not a matter of expertise as much as it is a matter of vision. We should be willing to imagine and dare to break new ground. For the kind of UCAVs internally proposed in the PAF (strike) and the kind of UCAVs I've proposed (a2a) simple yet effective solutions could be created with the resources available.
If we could imagine an Indian strike package having to worry about LR-SAMs breaking them up, and UCAVs with BVR missiles meeting them in coordination with PAF fighters, jamming, Long Range BVRs. All of these could make PAF's defenses even more formidable as a whole.
This is a very power full and visionary way to go. Imagine several UCAV armed with PL-15 howering for 20 hours each with a ground controller with advanced radar station telling where to fire the missile when needed.
Rafiqi, Middlecoat, Noor khan, Aloudin Ahmed Butch, last one Mitty masoodGuess these Pakistani Aviators