Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Safriz]

J-31 FTW

https://twitter.com/x/status/1049201001108914176

 

[SQ8]

To be fair, Russian apprehensions on China’s Su-35 request centered on Moscow’s fears that the Chinese were solely interested in the jet to study its engines & possibly to reverse engineer it....not fears of China’s selling a copy to third parties.

Your post contradicts itself, the fear is of reverse engineering and then selling those copies- taking potential revenue away from Russia.

 

[LKJ86]

It's odd. But I haven't seen AVIC market the J-10B or J-10C, you'll only find mock-ups of the J-10A at their stalls and exhibits during events. If not J-10C, then I guess AVIC's priority is to market the JF-17 and, later on, FC-31?

In fact, there is only J-10C in production now. About 100 J-10C is in service already, and maybe 300 in total is in plan.
And marketing FC-31 is not so easy.
It is really odd.
If J-10D really exists, J-10C may be exported soon.

 

[TOPGUN]

In fact, there is only J-10C in production now. About 100 J-10C is in service already, and maybe 300 in total is in plan.
And marketing FC-31 is not so easy.
It is really odd.
If J-10D really exists, J-10C may be exported soon.

Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?

 

[LKJ86]

Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?

IMHO, it is mainly based on the willing of PAF.

 

[Falcon26]

Your post contradicts itself, the fear is of reverse engineering and then selling those copies- taking potential revenue away from Russia.

I am not contradicting myself, at all. China copying Russian engines is a violation of Russian intellectual property. Whether China uses those engines for domestic consumption or sells abroad is irrelevant. China has already copied the SU-27/30 and producing them enmass. Russia has a right to be concerned. What you are hinting is that Russia is ok with China reverse engineering those engines/planes as long as it doesn’t sell them abroad; even though Chinese domestic requirements is exponentially larger than any potential foreign order. This is where we disagree. If Russian ban exists, it will apply across the board. My point still stands: there’s no credible proof that China can’t sell its SU-knockoffs. What you and others have are conjectures. Nothing conclusive.

Btw I am not even a fan of PAF inducting SU-knockoffs. I think it’s awful idea to induct a derivative of a plane your main adversary deploys and in bigger quantities. But arguments that China won’t sell its Su derivatives due to Russian restrictions is absurd and premised on flimsy grounds. China reverse engineered and inducted those planes in record numbers despite Russian restrictions!

Any chance PAF will go for J-10C ?

PAF should go for it but it won’t. Reasons have more to do with PAF’s rigid thinking and the idea that JF-17 & F-16s are sufficient for the Indian threat. Per PAF thinking, J-10c benefits are marginal compared to Jf-17 and don’t justify induction. Whether that’s true is up to anyone.

 

[TOPGUN]

J-10C is multirole correct ?

 

[Falcon26]

J-10C is multirole correct ?

Yes.

 

[TOPGUN]

Yes.

Pitty for PAF !!!!!

 

[GriffinsRule]

That’s faulty logic. PAF pursuing SU-series from Russia is not a proof that China can’t sell their derivatives to Pakistan! Russia being okey with Chinese factories rolling out hundreds of Sukhio knockoffs but protesting couple squadron sell to a third party to me doesn’t seem credible. Unless there’s an official or unofficial evidence, I am sorry I don’t buy this theory. It’s farfetched and weak. If intellectual property protection is the cited reason, then it makes no sense for Russia to continue selling their top of the line weapons to China knowing fully well that they will be reverse engineered. Despite previous experiences, Russia still sold SU-35 & SU-400 to China when Beijing has reverse engineered the older iterations of these weapons. I will have to call BS on this.

@Falcon26 That is why I said anecdotal evidence. Its not faulty logic I think, but we are all entitled to see things how they suit us. One other thing I could point to is that China has never offered the Su-27 knock-offs for sale in any promotional and sales materials while other Chinese products can be found splattered all over the marketing brochures and what not. That lack of evidence that China actually is either willing or able to sell the J-11 etc can make for a compelling argument as well.
Anyways, not to debate solely this point (whether China can or can not sell their J-11 series), I think its perhaps safe to say that we wont be seeing those aircraft in PAF service.

 

[fatman17]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1050921679461830656

Wing Loong

 

[Inception-06]

PLAAF is very satisfied with J-10C. It has a good performance during the training with Su-35, and is also deployed on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau (says hello to our Indian friends).
View attachment 504722

@tps77 @Quwa @MastanKhan

Which are the best air to air missiles this J-10C can carry or offer compared to the Indian SU-30MKI air to air missile arsenal, do the Chinese missiles have any edge or are they different or equal from the Indian weapon quality?

 

[HRK]

air to air missiles this J-10C can carry

J-10C with pair of PL-10 SRAAM and PL-15 LRAAM

I few days back read somewhere that upgraded PL-12 (version was not mention) almost match with PL-15

 

[denel]

Hi,

This is once in a lifetime when I just take the pointers out of a post---.

If Paf procurement was so finely tuned---then it should have bought the F16's in 2003-04.

See---I agree with you and the general / uncle you spoke to---Paf is finely tuned to procurement---.

But it is not finely tuned to procuring the right equipment at the right time in a timely manner---.

It gambled on the F16 purchase---and the nation lost an extremely strong fighting force---.

The Paf gambled on the JF17---and the project is 10 years behind schedule---.

Now if nigeria or myanmar or thailand were 10 years behind the project---it would not matter much---but when you are in constant fear of war---and you constantly chicken out to make a conventional stand against the opponent---then that is a big big issue---.

So---being clever in procurement---has resulted in being " too clever " overall---.

As for the maritime role---that is the most important battle front in the coming war for fighter and strike aircraft---.

The problem with the Paf is that it has been an over land operating air force primarily---and over the water was a secondary option---.

Now---over the water is the primary focus---and it that field----it has so far failed miserably---@denel

I concur with my friend. They continued to have narrow interest and completely lacked out of the box thinking. Now, as there are multiple evolutionary threats they face, they are still boxed in their mindset and refuse to acknowledge these gaps; they need a new fresh outlook - regretfully they suffer from being the initiator of ideas to implementors of ideas which is the primal failure point and now to let R&D incubators come up due to petty politics and protection of the turf... in short nothing less than traitors of their own making; the country also is to blame for holding them to high standards which was and is a fallacy. The ability to keep one step ahead is completely amiss and always the China card is there. There is no sense to own and develop further; that is exactly what my friends who were seconded over to Kamra said - they just take in but have no concept of taking it further because of the bureacratic red tape.
Mastan, in my work, we were not measured at the end of year based on how you towed the line but rather how frequently you went against the grain and came up with new ideas ... for example the algorithm for stable ultra high g manouvering using tvc that is on the a-darter. Constant challenging is required; that is regretfully my analysis of Kamra and PAC. I am very harsh in critism because that is how my senior mentors groomed our entire R&D engineering groups - never to be boxed in.

 

[Knight Rider]

I am not contradicting myself, at all. China copying Russian engines is a violation of Russian intellectual property. Whether China uses those engines for domestic consumption or sells abroad is irrelevant. China has already copied the SU-27/30 and producing them enmass. Russia has a right to be concerned. What you are hinting is that Russia is ok with China reverse engineering those engines/planes as long as it doesn’t sell them abroad; even though Chinese domestic requirements is exponentially larger than any potential foreign order. This is where we disagree. If Russian ban exists, it will apply across the board. My point still stands: there’s no credible proof that China can’t sell its SU-knockoffs. What you and others have are conjectures. Nothing conclusive.

Btw I am not even a fan of PAF inducting SU-knockoffs. I think it’s awful idea to induct a derivative of a plane your main adversary deploys and in bigger quantities. But arguments that China won’t sell its Su derivatives due to Russian restrictions is absurd and premised on flimsy grounds. China reverse engineered and inducted those planes in record numbers despite Russian restrictions!



PAF should go for it but it won’t. Reasons have more to do with PAF’s rigid thinking and the idea that JF-17 & F-16s are sufficient for the Indian threat. Per PAF thinking, J-10c benefits are marginal compared to Jf-17 and don’t justify induction. Whether that’s true is up to anyone.

China has already sold 253 F-6s (Mig-19 Farmer) copies and 180 F-7s (Mig-21 Fishbed) copies to Pakistan !!! Why selling J-11D (SU-27/30) copies would make a difference and trigger the Russians now all of a sudden ??? If Russians are so much concerned,they should provide a better option to Pakistan.

Russian MIGs are not a bad option for PAF !!!

We need a heavy deep strike fighter for bombing role and which can also perform air superiority role aswell against enemy aircrafts (bandits) during bombing missions.

An Example for Heavy Strike Fighter;
Look how American F-15Cs performed against the Iraqi air force !!!! The only aircraft which challenge the F-15C was MIG-25. Iraqi shot down 1 F-15C and 1 F/A-18 in Dogfights with it during the Gulf war 1991.