Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Falcon26]

PAF is not considering J-11 and other Su-27 knockoffs from China because they are not available for sale without Russian okay, which is unlikely to come, given they would rather sell their aircraft directly. However, given the CAATSA law, it is better to avoid getting in that mess between the US and Russians. Remember, the law they passed applies to "major" weapon systems, which an Su-35 would certainly be, while RD-93 engines are not.
On the same token, China would not be willing to upset their Russian relations, esp with them working together as counter-balance to the US by selling us any J-11 series aircraft (even if they could) as it is not in their strategic interest. Then there is the aspect of the aircraft itself, with China having just bought Su-35s from Russia itself, so one can read into that as they may.

Also, it has nothing to do with CPEC, so not sure how that applies, unless you mean Pakistan getting further in debt with the Chinese, which I am not in favor of at all.

As for the Typhoon, while tempting as it maybe, I don't think it is a good idea. Mind you, the upfront cost is just a small part of the equation. PAF will be with these aircraft for the next 30 years, and spending that much money on an aircraft with very limited (T1 Block 5) A2G capabilities, that will cost an arm and a leg to upgrade and support, I can not justify that purchase at all. Also, it is very possible to upgrade the T1s down the line to newer standards ... it will just cost a lot of money. Another thing to note is that the EF Typhoon production line is due to close by 2022. Had our financial situation been better, we could have bought new aircraft from the EF consortium and in return got very helpful and needed infrastructure upgrades for our own aviation sector, but buying these used T1s don't get us any ancillary benefits.

I think, we need to keep a laser focus on developing our own aviation industry and avoid getting jumpy and anxious every time India buys shiny toys to pat themselves on the back. In the medium to long run, PAF should be limited to 3 fighters, the JF-17, F-16, and whatever Project AZM brings to fruition. It will not only streamline our logistics and in turn save us $$s, it will bring us more security as well. Let IAF burden itself with a hodgepodge of aircraft from all over the place.

Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.

China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.

China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.

Selling 1960s technology is one thing, Su-27s another. Also, when China sold those across the world, they were not on friendly terms with the Soviets.

 

[Falcon26]

Selling 1960s technology is one thing, Su-27s another. Also, when China sold those across the world, they were not on friendly terms with the Soviets.

My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?

 

[GriffinsRule]

What sort of evidence do you require? And where do you think it would be available?

What we do have is ample anecdotal evidence, from PAF itself, that it has directly engaged with Russia and Ukraine in the past for Su-27 and Su-35 talks, but no such reports are even mentioned in regards to China, from whom we have quite openly discussed J-10s and even J-20s and cooperation in stealth fighter program for the PAF.
That is evidence enough for me

 

[Mahmood-ur-Rehman]

Because it is Europe original
To some parkistan friends,it is best

Pakistan nor parkistan

 

[Falcon26]

What sort of evidence do you require? And where do you think it would be available?

What we do have is ample anecdotal evidence, from PAF itself, that it has directly engaged with Russia and Ukraine in the past for Su-27 and Su-35 talks, but no such reports are even mentioned in regards to China, from whom we have quite openly discussed J-10s and even J-20s and cooperation in stealth fighter program for the PAF.
That is evidence enough for me

That’s faulty logic. PAF pursuing SU-series from Russia is not a proof that China can’t sell their derivatives to Pakistan! Russia being okey with Chinese factories rolling out hundreds of Sukhio knockoffs but protesting couple squadron sell to a third party to me doesn’t seem credible. Unless there’s an official or unofficial evidence, I am sorry I don’t buy this theory. It’s farfetched and weak. If intellectual property protection is the cited reason, then it makes no sense for Russia to continue selling their top of the line weapons to China knowing fully well that they will be reverse engineered. Despite previous experiences, Russia still sold SU-35 & SU-400 to China when Beijing has reverse engineered the older iterations of these weapons. I will have to call BS on this.

 

[Maxpane]

EFT?

 

[messiach]

The world has rapidly changed in the last 10years. Russia & China are looking at a post petro$ world. In principle Russia is not going to object as long as parties adhere to 'share in the pie'. Our team incld some PAF pilots at chengdu had 'almost open access' to flankers.

My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?

 

[Falcon26]

The world has rapidly changed in the last 10years. Russia & China are looking at a post petro$ world. In principle Russia is not going to object as long as parties adhere to 'share in the pie'. Our team incld some PAF pilots at chengdu had 'almost open access' to flankers.

How about in practice?

 

[syed_yusuf]

My point still stands: where’s the evidence Russia is blocking China from exporting their Su-knockoffs?

i agree, PAF is not going into chinese versions of Su-27 due to various reasons. Russian blockade is not one of them

 

[SQ8]

Where’s the evidence that China will not sell their Russian knockoffs to third parties? This claim has been made repeatedly on this forum but without any substantive evidence.

China sold their MiG-19 & MiG-21 knockoffs the world over. There’s little doubt they won’t sell their Su-knockoffs if the price is right.

Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.

 

[Falcon26]

Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.

To be fair, Russian apprehensions on China’s Su-35 request centered on Moscow’s fears that the Chinese were solely interested in the jet to study its engines & possibly to reverse engineer it....not fears of China’s selling a copy to third parties.

 

[Quwa]

Attempts have been made to source them before, the issue is that the Russians don’t want a repeat of the mig-19 and 21 saga. They were already furious that China is making the J series after getting the SKs. The recent Su-35 purchase too has a lot of strings attached; but you are correct that money goes a long way.

I wouldn't underestimate the operating cost of the Flankers either. I can't say if it's because of the Flanker in of itself or due to Russia's vertically tight after-sale support structure, but flying Flankers isn't easy.

It might sound like a cop-out, but as you'd explained, the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes.

You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?). I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). However, can you sustain it if your availability rate starts tanking due to a lack of spare parts (or the Russians being slow)?

I remember an uncle told me about how the PAF looked at the Jaguar and Tornado at various points. There was no doubt that those fighters had value in their intended roles, but the platforms were either dependent on others or in truth needed a complete domestic support chain for long-term value (esp. Jaguar).

The Flanker falls in the latter, and there's no fault on the Chinese I think for pursuing it -- lest they end up like the IAF with at one point a low serviceability rate. I doubt the Russians would cede as much to Pakistan.

So we either work out a bespoke deal for Chinese Flankers and pay Russia fees for licensing the design, which I don't think flew otherwise the PAF would've likely done it, or we go for something else.

I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.

 

[CriticalThought]

I wouldn't underestimate the operating cost of the Flankers either. I can't say if it's because of the Flanker in of itself or due to Russia's vertically tight after-sale support structure, but flying Flankers isn't easy.

It might sound like a cop-out, but as you'd explained, the PAF procures based on finely-tuned plans and processes.

You'd have to rework a lot of things to accommodate for the Flanker and, at some point, you might as well ask if it's even worth it (will you cede 1 meter for a 1 foot gain?). I doubt the Flankers would factor much beyond maritime -- and even then, the goal would be to deter (truly valuable gains). However, can you sustain it if your availability rate starts tanking due to a lack of spare parts (or the Russians being slow)?

I remember an uncle told me about how the PAF looked at the Jaguar and Tornado at various points. There was no doubt that those fighters had value in their intended roles, but the platforms were either dependent on others or in truth needed a complete domestic support chain for long-term value (esp. Jaguar).

The Flanker falls in the latter, and there's no fault on the Chinese I think for pursuing it -- lest they end up like the IAF with at one point a low serviceability rate. I doubt the Russians would cede as much to Pakistan.

So we either work out a bespoke deal for Chinese Flankers and pay Russia fees for licensing the design, which I don't think flew otherwise the PAF would've likely done it, or we go for something else.

I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.

Here is an ideal. Acquire manufacturing rights for SU-35 and negotiate the Saturn AL-41 engine for use on Azm or an uprated Thunder type aircraft. This is how you build a synergy and economies of scale. Pair up with China on spares and maintenance. I believe with proper planning it should be much more doable than any European options.

Btw, under the offsets deal of Rafale, important missiles are to be assembled in India. With the Flankers, at least we can rely on Chinese missiles.

 

[LKJ86]

I'd hope the Chinese make the J-10C available at some point soon, it would make for a pretty good all-round air-to-air and air-to-ground platform. It also benefits from the scale of the PLAAF, so the production and cost of parts and support shouldn't be an issue. It'd also link up with key Chinese munitions, esp. supersonic AShM.

PLAAF is very satisfied with J-10C. It has a good performance during the training with Su-35, and is also deployed on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau (says hello to our Indian friends).