Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[ChineseTiger1986]

araz was debating about WS-19 engine ..... this news is too good to be true at this moment ....
logically speaking why China would transfer the technology of Jet engine manufacturing which is achieved after the decades long research & billions of $ investment ....??
In my opinion the maximum we can have the rights of assembling and manufacturing of non-critical parts of WS-19 with this deal

From a geopolitical scope, China has already put huge stake on Pakistan with the CPEC, so everything is intertwined, from economic to military perspective.

Since China has supported Pakistan's nuclear program, but has opposed the one from North Korea. You can clearly see that China has the routine to make exemption for Pakistan.

Maybe from an initial step, Pakistan maybe lacks the capability to product all critical components for the WS-19, but it is still a good starting point for your aerospace industry.

BTW, the time will tell if this news is true or not.

 

[araz]

Putting aside the specific news for a moment, the idea of getting a factory line for the engine isn't outlandish. Note: we shouldn't mix a local engine manufacturing line for China transferring an engine industry to Pakistan. India has been manufacturing AL-31FPs for a while. However, in our case the factory equipment, core components - e.g. crystal blades - will have to come from China and that China will always be linked to manufacturing Chinese engines in Pakistan.

Fair enough but a few things need to be considered. Pak China interactions in defence have not traditionally been as stringent as say Pak US buys. Therefore there will be an attempt by Pak to progressively increase its ehare of local products. That requires both investment which we dont have, technological leaps which we may currently not be able to absorb and will take money away from the Chinese which any good businessman will not desire. That for 40 odd fighters and you are giving away a key technological achievement when your developmental cost would exceed the amount of the contract. This is a bad business formula and the Chinese are very astute business men. So unless someone is projecting a 500 planes demand, currently I would treat this notion with a certain mistrust if not sheer disbelief.
Regards
A

From a geopolitical scope, China has already put huge stake on Pakistan with the CPEC, so everything is intertwined, from economic to military perspective.

Since China has supported Pakistan's nuclear program, but has opposed the one from North Korea. You can clearly see that China has the routine to make exemption for Pakistan.

Maybe from an initial step, Pakistan maybe lacks the capability to product all critical components for the WS-19, but it is still a good starting point for your aerospace industry.

BTW, the time will tell if this news is true or not.

Look I dont want to derail this topic but the money has been invested with clear gains in mind. So this is not just brotherly relations. It was done because the Chinese are seeing profit in it. The advantages maybe there for both countries but no one can spin this yarn of Chinese benevolence for the love of Pakistan. Let us be frank and call a spade a spade. Mutual interests keep Pak China together and this is the real adhesive in the relationship.
A

Without the WS-19, the PAF won't choose the J-31.

BTW, to cooperate with China is Pakistan's only viable option for the 5th gen, since the current US government is hostile toward you and any other Muslim nations, while Turkey doesn't have the technology nor financial capability to provide this.

China and Turkey are both strategic partners in the fifth generation project. No one is foolish enough to deny the help the Chinese have rendered but this has been in response to critical help provided by Pakistan to the Chinese as well. However this notion is a bridge too far so my note of dissention.
A

On the flip side Chinese may have learnt the lesson.
J-10B wasn't bought by Pakistan because the pre_condition was that China will provide the engine with a Chinese engine,not TOT.
Chinese simply failed to make an engine until recently. So j-10 never came to PAF.
For J-31 Chinese may be doing what Americans did to Swedish. Their jet engines are also based on a TOT from.USA.

The OP I responded seemed to suggest a lock stock and barrel approach to transfer of engine technology. The J31itself is a problematic issue for PAF. There has been no evidence to date of PLAN/ PLAAF involvement or a commitment to buy the plane. This remains a prototype and development may require multiple billions of dollars which PAF will not fork out. There seems to be a technical game being played in that PAF wants a commitment from PLAAF/PLAN to buy the platform and inject money to cater the development cost. Until they do that J31 is not going anywhere and the project may yet close down for lack of international support. To propel the project forward the Chinese are offering select technologies. However the proviso mentioned in my posts remain. At best lets watch this space, but beyond this this notion is a bit suspect.
A

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Look I dont want to derail this topic but the money has been invested with clear gains in mind. So this is not just brotherly relations. It was done because the Chinese are seeing profit in it. The advantages maybe there for both countries but no one can spin this yarn of Chinese benevolence for the love of Pakistan. Let us be frank and call a spade a spade. Mutual interests keep Pak China together and this is the real adhesive in the relationship.
A

I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.

BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.

If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) something is strange because werent there chinese and turkish scientists in Pakistan a few month ago and there was news of them teaching Pakistani aerospace engineers or something to that effect. Turks also worked on some naval project with Pakistani scientists. I think these 3 news were also reported by you on Quwa as well?? What's up with that and how would that fit into context of this new runour from chinese friend?

 

[Safriz]

I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.

BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.

View attachment 449817

If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.

J-20 is galaxies beyond our requirements.

 

[araz]

I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.

BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.

View attachment 449817

If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.

There is unlikely to be a buy from Pak this side of 2020. Even if negotiations start now typically they will run for 2 years. Say in 2023-25 would J20 still remain off limits for PAF. Does China want to lose Pak as a customer, when a buy by Pak is a seal of approval to the quality of the product. No product which PAF has not bought from China has been an international success. So PAF will make an enquiry at a time when J20 becomes available and it wont be refused. If a J20 downs a couple of Rafales it wl have internationwl customers lining up to buy the product.
So an eazy defence against India is 5o bolster Pak defences within reason making some money in the process.
A

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

J-20 is galaxies beyond our requirements.

It is also much more expensive to maintain than the J-31.

I do believe that China does not intend to keep the J-20 classified forever.

Also, considering about the budget of the PAF, the J-31 was eventually pitched by the PAF, since the J-20 might not really suit the need of the PAF.

There is unlikely to be a buy from Pak this side of 2020. Even if negotiations start now typically they will run for 2 years. Say in 2023-25 would J20 still remain off limits for PAF. Does China want to lose Pak as a customer, when a buy by Pak is a seal of approval to the quality of the product. No product which PAF has not bought from China has been an international success. So PAF will make an enquiry at a time when J20 becomes available and it wont be refused. If a J20 downs a couple of Rafales it wl have internationwl customers lining up to buy the product.
So an eazy defence against India is 5o bolster Pak defences within reason making some money in the process.
A

When Pakistan got a bigger economy, and the PAF has the upgraded requirements with a more lavish budget, I will say that the option for the J-20 will definitely be available.

But for now, the PAF has opted for the J-31, and soon you may see the official announcement from your media.

 

[SipahSalar]

But for now, the PAF has opted for the J-31, and soon you may see the official announcement from your media.

Has J-31 even been deployed by the PLAAF yet? I think once it has been deployed and starts active service only then the PAF will be able to put the stealth fighter through tests in local environment.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Has J-31 even been deployed by the PLAAF yet? I think once it has been deployed and starts active service only then the PAF will be able to put the stealth fighter through tests in local environment.

The J-20 was already deployed by the PLAAF, while the J-31 was selected by the PLAN.

The successor of the J-15 will be based on the J-31.

 

[CriticalThought]

I know it is cool for Pakistan to acquire the J-20, but SAC has worked hard on the J-31 over a decade, and China wanna provide SAC an equal opportunity to promote their product.

BTW, China is very close to test the 6th gen turbofan engine on the J-20, so this means that the 6th gen aircraft is also around the corner within this decade, and the J-20 will indeed not be remained classified forever.

View attachment 449817

If I have read any news about China's offer of the J-20 to Pakistan, then I will indeed feel glad to share with you guys, but for now, the 5th gen aircraft deal only involves with the J-31.

I envision half a squadron to full squadron of J-20 stationed in China along with Pakistani pilots. They train and work their until called in emergency when they fly first to Pakistan, then elsewhere for deep strike missions.

 

[The Accountant]

Without the WS-19, the PAF won't choose the J-31.

BTW, to cooperate with China is Pakistan's only viable option for the 5th gen, since the current US government is hostile toward you and any other Muslim nations, while Turkey doesn't have the technology nor financial capability to provide this.

What he is talking about could be assembly and maintenance of engine ... We already have experience with mirrages and was trying the same for thunder ... It make sense and we have expertise similar to license assembly of engine ... We all know that Pakistan do not have any serious metalurgical capacity therefore the only thing in terms of engine manufacturing we could do is assembly and believe me this is not for the first time we are trying this... We tried similar arrangent for rd93 but we did not succeed ...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I envision half a squadron to full squadron of J-20 stationed in China along with Pakistani pilots. They train and work their until called in emergency when they fly first to Pakistan, then elsewhere for deep strike missions.

It is possible in the future, but right now the PAF has chosen the J-31, and I think it has mostly to do with the budget.

What he is talking about could be assembly and maintenance of engine ... We already have experience with mirrages and was trying the same for thunder ... It make sense and we have expertise similar to license assembly of engine ... We all know that Pakistan do not have any serious metalurgical capacity therefore the only thing in terms of engine manufacturing we could do is assembly and believe me this is not for the first time we are trying this... We tried similar arrangent for rd93 but we did not succeed ...

To assemble the turbofan engine is also a critical step for your aerospace industry.

And the WS-19 is at least a generation ahead of the RD93, and you could learn a lot thing about the design structure of the 5th gen turbofan engine.

 

[Beethoven]

This news was provided by our military insider.

The WS-19 is better than the EJ200 with an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR of 10.

This means J-31 for Pakistan will be powered by WS-19?????????

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This means J-31 for Pakistan will be powered by WS-19?????????

Yep, it will power the J-31 for both PLAN and PAF.

The WS-19 has an afterburner thrust of 120KN and a TWR exceeding 10.

 

[Shabi1]

The J-31 will officially become Pakistan's 5th gen fighter, and China has decided to transfer the technology of the WS-19 to Pakistan.

Good to hear. Already was expecting a MBT-2000/Al-Khalid type transfer venture for J-31/Project Azm fighter