Pakistan acquires capability to develop N-sub

[EagleEyes]

Your right about the tit tat. Lets just call it an arms race or a counter measurement from Pakistan. Nuclear submarines will provide Pakistan another strike capability, and in the future if threats may rise, they will become a potent threat to any country in the world. Most of the nuclear capable countries are acquiring this technology as it gives them many options.

What i believe is if Pakistan is spending billions of dollars in building up more advanced and long range ballistic missiles it should allocate funds for this technology instead.

Though we dont need it, we also dont need longer range ballistic missiles. Do we? Its just about advancements in technology. Now on other side we can use these same funds for other things like healthcare, education, and development more efficiently, but then for every area there are limited funds.

 

[master_fx]

Pakistan is only trying to "acquire" some technology and help from China. It is only a start. Why is everyone starting to jump into a conclusion that Pakistan cannot build a nuclear submarine and and author is only bullshiting?. Indeed, it will take many years for Pakistan to build a nuclear submarine, seeing how hard it is to just build a conventional one.

As far as what i understand or what i believe is that the news only suggests that Pakistan is interested in it and trying to get its hands on it. Seeing that India has already leased some of the nuclear submarines from Russia it is a strategical threat to Pakistan, and like always Pakistan would like to have a great edge in submarine warfare versus India in order to be a defensive force.

Now i am not saying that Pakistan can't be an offensive force with the submarines either!

no, no, no........ i am just saying much of help are needed to build such a great beast.......

 

[Sid]

...Nuclear submarines will provide Pakistan another strike capability, and in the future if threats may rise, they will become a potent threat to any country in the world.

Pakistan doesn't have to worry about the world, its main issue is with India and as far as second strike capability is concerned, the SSKs can perform just as well as the SSNs but more cheaply. You only have to modify SSKs to carry Babur's sub-version and on the other hand, miniaturize a nuclear warhead to go with the Babur. There you have it, a second strike capability with NO SSN needed (waste of resources in Pakistan's case), as PN has wisely rejected the SSN idea already.

Most of the nuclear capable countries are acquiring this technology as it gives them many options.

Not really.

What i believe is if Pakistan is spending billions of dollars in building up more advanced and long range ballistic missiles it should allocate funds for this technology instead.

Though we dont need it, we also dont need longer range ballistic missiles. Do we? Its just about advancements in technology. Now on other side we can use these same funds for other things like healthcare, education, and development more efficiently, but then for every area there are limited funds.

Once again, long range ballistic missiles aren't useless. Infact, they're not even 'long' range, in military terminology, the ones that Pakistan currently has (the max range is 2500Km) are put in to the medium-to-intermediate range catagory. And 2500Km is just about good enough as far as targetting India goes. Anything over and above that range would raise concerns about if Pakistan really needs that much range. Secondly, then the arguement could be raised that so much money (that went in to R & D of the 2500+ Km ballistic missile) could've instead be poured in to R & D of Babur's naval version and miniaturization of the nuclear warhead to spearhead Pakistan's second strike capability.

 

[Quwa]

I think there should be a clear line drawn in what the Pak Military is saying and not saying; there is a difference between "nuclear capable" and "nuclear powered". Nuclear capable could mean two things; it either has the potential to become a nuclear powered submarine, or it can use nuclear tipped weapons. Nuclear powered obviously means nuclear powered submarines; I think the PN is striving towards making their SSKs capable of firing Babur CMs armed with nukes.

 

[blain2]

I would agree that when Pakistan says "nuclear" anything about a submarine, its essentially a SSK capable of launching SLCMs with nuclear warheads. If Pakistan can get enough real estate on a SSK to house the SLCMs, then SSN is not needed. Range with AIP and endurance is more than enough for PN to rely upon the SSKs to carry out the job of nuclear deterrance (similar approach as IDFNavy).

 

[araz]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has acquired the capability of developing its own nuclear submarine. Pakistani scientists and the engineers have developed indigenous technology for building the nuclear submarines at the existing facilities. This capability will strengthen the naval defence of the country. President Gen Pervez Musharraf will discuss this matter with the Chinese President during his visit to Islamabad in November this year.

Pakistan started exploring alternative sources and strategies to bridge the wide gap with India in conventional and strategic weapons/forces to sustain its independence and sovereignty. The gap was widening due to the United State’s tilt towards India as compared to Pakistan. According to a military comparison, Indo-Pak conventional and strategic asymmetries until now are not primarily in favour of Pakistan:flag:
http://www.pakistaniforces.com/news/publish/article49.php

AsSalamoAlaikum.
Tha original piece of news quoted above clearly indicates a nuclear sub which is what my question was about. I suspect an offshoot of this news is that increased capability means more sophisticated technology which inturn translates into acquisition of a higher level of skill. Many a moons ago I was told by a sage that it is not emerging technologies but the skills required to achieve them which the developed world guards fiercely because of its commercial applications. I have always thought of it as a very valid observation. Members comments would be appreciated.
Wa Salam
Araz

 

[KashifAsrar]

Many a moons ago I was told by a sage that it is not emerging technologies but the skills required to achieve them which the developed world guards fiercely because of its commercial applications. I have always thought of it as a very valid observation. Members comments would be appreciated.
Wa Salam
Araz

I appreciate this comment araz. I understand what you are saying. Now I see this point. Good observation. That makes a quite valid point when we look around in developing world.
I give you a recent example. Iran. What they have done which west fears? It is not thier nuke plants but the skills that Iranians now have. These skills are western monopoly at one point of time. It is no more the case in many areas and west is loosing its monopoly fast. Asian countries in particular are contributing in this trend. We see now that small, undeveloped, poor countries like Pakistan, India, North korea, Iran etc. are taking these so called 'Wonders of Modern World' in thier strides quite easily with little effort.
Yes the sage is right

it is not emerging technologies but the skills required to achieve them which the developed world guards fiercely because of its commercial applications

and I would add to it ' and political use also.'
Kashif

 

[waz]

Hi guys.

At this point in time I would prefer that the PN works on acquiring sufficient surface combatants to offset any potential attack by the Indian Navy, be able to maintain our territorial waters integrity and be strong enough to attack Indian Naval assets. The F-22 and the Greek frigates go someway but a larger purchase of Frigates and destroyers is needed but from what I know and seen from PN sources this is on the cards.

Now for the nuclear submarines is there a need for them? I would argue that not at this point in time but in the near future yes. I’m not suggesting this because our neighbour is leasing a few from the Russians but because I do see the benefits it will bring in terms of strategic defence to Pakistan.

The single biggest advantage is that nuclear subs are truly independent of the surface with only food and the well being of the crew impeding this.

The operational time of nuclear submarine is far greater than that of conventional diesel submarines i.e. they can hold out a great deal longer seeing as they are not heavily tied to fuel supply.

The nuclear reactor can enables the craft to travel at faster speeds for longer periods of time, hence they are faster at deployment than their diesel counterparts especially when distance is involved.

Finally the Nuclear submarine is a great deal more comfortable for the crew and offers up more living space than a diesel. The battery will be much smaller, the diesels as well and the amount of fuel oil to be carried would be much smaller than a conventional sub, giving the crew a lot more room inside for weapons, electronics, and general space.

Some people may say ok so what how does this all fit in with Pakistan Naval doctrine considering the job can be done with Nuclear tipped Babur’s. Yes our present and future procurements can suffice for taking India to task but given the large coastline they have and the advances they are making in ASW warfare which they intend to outfit a great deal of their ships just how long could we still play this card? The Nuclear powered submarines could travel the length of their coastlines without having time limitations in mind and could instead of relying on cruise missiles could deliver the strike with ballistic missiles further away from their coast line. Taking ourselves away from India with present day politics and the changing nature of the world just how sure can we be we might not have an enemy who threatens us from miles away? What then? Having a small amount of Nuclear submarines I propose three will guarantee our strategic defence for many years and with the scenario I just mentioned we could send them to any future protagonist which will not only act as a deterrence to any further hostile posturing but we can also be sure we can hit with something hard and fast in the event of things taking a turn for the worst.

Finance wise the Navy is having its budget raised and this is a long term project than may span the best part of 10 years which I see as affordable. If the economy keeps on track like it is now I don’t see the project being a particular drain.

 

[Kaiser]

Currently the PN is looking into buying

4 new heavy frigates
4 new corvettes
15 new FACS
6 new subs
8 new p3c orions
12 new fighters

I think this along with the 4 modified F-22p's and 4 modified ellie classes will be enough to defence Pakistan and keep the IN away from the arabian sea

Dont forget the F-22p's that pakistan is buying are modified according to PN's requirments. They are going to be equiped with a better EW, and radar system. They will also be equiped with more SAMS, harpoon and C-803 ASM, and phalx system. The ellie class that pakistan just bought will also go through a large modifying program that will equiped it with upto date EW and radar systems.

 

[Kaiser]

Pakistan might aswell have the capabilities to make a nuclear sub but before we can do this the PN should look at more important matters such as mofying the baburs for land attack capability by being launched from subs. Only after issues like this are solved should pakistan go head to try to make or buy its own nuclear sub. Remember nuclear subs are very very expensive to maintain and are litterally impossible to buy

 

[hsan_82@yahoo.com]

wow thats great .....but i have a question and that is China her self doesn't have much efficient nuclear technology ....China have Russion submarines..so, this is not respecitable news. may it happpend

 

[waz]

Currently the PN is looking into buying

4 new heavy frigates
4 new corvettes
15 new FACS
6 new subs
8 new p3c orions
12 new fighters

I think this along with the 4 modified F-22p's and 4 modified ellie classes will be enough to defence Pakistan and keep the IN away from the arabian sea

Dont forget the F-22p's that pakistan is buying are modified according to PN's requirments. They are going to be equiped with a better EW, and radar system. They will also be equiped with more SAMS, harpoon and C-803 ASM, and phalx system. The ellie class that pakistan just bought will also go through a large modifying program that will equiped it with upto date EW and radar systems.

That's a nice list but I would remove the corvettes and put in two destroyers, 2 frigates or 4 more frigates. The corvette role could be fulfilled by missile boats especially in terms of PN doctrine. We should go for as many large surface combatants as possible.

Sorry to go off slightly off topic guys.

 

[Kaiser]

That's a nice list but I would remove the corvettes and put in two destroyers, 2 frigates or 4 more frigates. The corvette role could be full filled by missile boats especially in terms of PN doctrine. We should go for as many large surface combatants as possible.

Sorry to go off slightly off topic guys.

Well it the PN naval chief has confirmed to Janes Pakistan is looking into 4 modern corvettes (most likely turkish or german) and 4 heavy frigates (most likely chinese 054 or German frigate). Pakistan is not looking into getting any destroyers in the near future but the procurement of 2 extra F-22p's is likely.

I think Pakistan should mainly focus on its subs and naval fighters which can give the IN a real big headache

 

[Quwa]

Currently the PN is looking into buying

4 new heavy frigates
4 new corvettes
15 new FACS
6 new subs
8 new p3c orions
12 new fighters

Well let me correct you a tiny bit;

4 new built heavy frigates above the 3000 ton displacement (MEKO D?)
4 new built missile corvettes between 1500 and 2000 tons (MEKO A-100/130?)
6+ new FACs (IMO Chinese or Turkish)
3-6 new SSK attack submarines (Marlin, U-212/214, Chinese or Spanish)
8 P-3C Orion - 2 of them delivered.
6-8 new helicopters in the class of Seaking Mk45 (NH-90?)
8-12 new helicopters in the class of Alouette III (Fennec?)

Ideally we're looking at 16 frigates and corvettes as well 9 modern SSKs by 2020.

 

[Kaiser]

Well let me correct you a tiny bit;

4 new built heavy frigates above the 3000 ton displacement (MEKO D?)
4 new built missile corvettes between 1500 and 2000 tons (MEKO A-100/130?)
6+ new FACs (IMO Chinese or Turkish)
3-6 new SSK attack submarines (Marlin, U-212/214, Chinese or Spanish)
8 P-3C Orion - 2 of them delivered.
6-8 new helicopters in the class of Seaking Mk45 (NH-90?)
8-12 new helicopters in the class of Alouette III (Fennec?)

Ideally we're looking at 16 frigates and corvettes as well 9 modern SSKs by 2020.

2020 seems to away to be predicting, I think by 2015 pakistan could have 16 modern friagtes and a couple corvettes, 15 FACS (home built) Pakistan alone in the last 6 months got 4 new FACS. Pakistan also needs new fighters in which I would prefer F-16 equiped with harpoon 2