Pak to get 40 MRAP vehicles

[Taygibay]

https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1086534

Navistar Defense LLC, Lisle, Illinois, was awarded a $35,077,157 firm-fixed-price, foreign military sales contract (Pakistan) for the procurement of 40 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) MaxxPro Dash DXM foreign military sales vehicles, various support items, and contractor logistics and technical support services. Bids were solicited via the Internet with one received. Work will be performed in West Point, Mississippi; and Pakistan, with an estimated completion date of Oct. 31, 2018. Fiscal 2010 other funds in the amount of $35,077,157 were obligated at the time of the award. Army Contracting Command – Tank and Automotive, Warren, Michigan, is the contracting activity (W56HZV-17-C-0038).

https://www.navistardefense.com/NavistarDefense/vehicles/maxxpromrap/maxxpro_dash_dxm

Respectively the allotment and the beast.

Always go to the source for information,
it cuts down on the trolling later on, Tay.

P.S. Great convo and day all!

 

[Pioneerfirst]

I do not know what our policy makers are doing, 900K for each is too much. I have some knowledge of Pakistan's industrial capabilities and I am sure every part of this vehicle except engine and transmission can be made in Pakistan in under a year time.All we need is some help in designing. I am sure we can made 200 vehicles in 35 Million.

 

[Rank]

 

[Rank]

View attachment 378381

 

[jhungary]

My principle objection to expensive MRAP procurement is their limited operational use. Ideally, any military should not be in a situation where insurgents/enemies can carry on deploying mines and IEDs at will. APCs and sometimes even IFVs are usually deployed in most military scenarios, and if the conflict zone is too hot then the infantry loves it's tanks. MRAPs are neither here nor there, too less for really hostile areas and overkill for deployment in most civilian areas. That is why IMO focus should be on mostly smaller, cost-effective options.

This could be a limited purchase, and as you rightly pointed out makes sense for use as convoy vanguard.

What would be interesting is if there are any MRAP options available in modular vehicles. In APC vehicles, Patria AMV and Havoc 8x8 are comprehensive and versatile platforms. Anything similar will work fine for MRAPs as well, if it could be developed cheaper. And due to modular nature the platform could be used for other general/specialized purposes.

Maybe I can shred some light on this.

THe days when I was in Afghanistan, we do not have MARP (it was introduced to conventional force in 2007) so for a grunt to do patrol worl prior to 2007 (I was in Iraq in 2003 and Afghan in 2005) you will need be on a Humvee (up armoured or not) Then you go around the "Hot Spot" and dismount, walk up to the hotspot in a squad armed with metal detector, go around and sweep the hot spot, after that, either you are blown to pieces, or nothing happen, then you mount up, and drive to another hot spot, and check it again.

The problem is, we do not do that for us, we do it for the people who are using that road. You cannot set up roadblock every 20 meters and have the RB watch the road 24 hours a day. Meaning, they can strike you when you are not expected, and you will be not expected.

And no.........You never use IFV or Tanks in that environment without infantry support. Tanks and IFV are death trap if you do not move it with infantry. And military solution in this sceanrio would be what I just said, which is for you to dismount and check hotspot. You ram a tank in there, you will lost a tank. You ram a tank in with infantry support, you will ended up losing both.

 

[Lurch Adams]

Maybe I can shred some light on this.

THe days when I was in Afghanistan, we do not have MARP (it was introduced to conventional force in 2007) so for a grunt to do patrol worl prior to 2007 (I was in Iraq in 2003 and Afghan in 2005) you will need be on a Humvee (up armoured or not) Then you go around the "Hot Spot" and dismount, walk up to the hotspot in a squad armed with metal detector, go around and sweep the hot spot, after that, either you are blown to pieces, or nothing happen, then you mount up, and drive to another hot spot, and check it again.

The problem is, we do not do that for us, we do it for the people who are using that road. You cannot set up roadblock every 20 meters and have the RB watch the road 24 hours a day. Meaning, they can strike you when you are not expected, and you will be not expected.

And no.........You never use IFV or Tanks in that environment without infantry support. Tanks and IFV are death trap if you do not move it with infantry. And military solution in this sceanrio would be what I just said, which is for you to dismount and check hotspot. You ram a tank in there, you will lost a tank. You ram a tank in with infantry support, you will ended up losing both.

I fully understand your experience. Which is why I mentioned scenarios. Afghanistan and Iraq scenarios are not what most militaries expect to encounter on a regular basis. So procuring limited no. of these MRAPs makes sense to lead convoys as previously mentioned. However, large-scale procurement, if made, has to be cost-effective because it is not something which one would require in regular front lines.

I guess it all boils down to the kind of deployment Pak army is expecting over next decades. They are not in the position of the US/NATO where overseas deployment in conflict zones may be expected at short notice. And if they feel they need lots of protection during domestic assignments against mines and IEDs then there is something to be said about that as well.

 

[IceCold]

You ram a tank in there, you will lost a tank. You ram a tank in with infantry support, you will ended up losing both.

Can you elaborate on the above part a bit more? Pardon my ignorance but how exactly would you ram a tank and with what exactly if by ram you mean ramming literally?

 

[jhungary]

I fully understand your experience. Which is why I mentioned scenarios. Afghanistan and Iraq scenarios are not what most militaries expect to encounter on a regular basis. So procuring limited no. of these MRAPs makes sense to lead convoys as previously mentioned. However, large-scale procurement, if made, has to be cost-effective because it is not something which one would require in regular front lines.

I guess it all boils down to the kind of deployment Pak army is expecting over next decades. They are not in the position of the US/NATO where overseas deployment in conflict zones may be expected at short notice. And if they feel they need lots of protection during domestic assignments against mines and IEDs then there is something to be said about that as well.

The problem is, when a country is at war, it can, literally descent into that scenario. Iraq and Afghansitan is a representation of insurgency. It used to be, in the old day, a 4th generation warfare, which mean you will only face insurgency with a non-state actor, but the experience we had with ISIS told us the world have move on to 4GW+ where insurgency can be in a form of State Actor.

Now, this is not about what and where or when you fight, but about how you fight, no matter what kind of war situation you had, you will always had people try to ambush your convoy, and place IED on your MSR or ASR. the problem is even if you avoid using these routes, you cannot stop other people using it, and in this case, you will be responsible for other people, and you will need to clear them for these folks.

Large scale procurment may seems odd but when you are fighting an enemy which will resort to laying mine and IED over your support route, then these thing would come in handy, and if you don't have them in stock (Be it in large number) then you either don't resupply your troop, or you will be wasting a lot of resource just to resupply your troop.

Sorry I was not quite clear (or if you don't really understand what did I say) as I am a bit drunk right now...

Can you elaborate on the above part a bit more? Pardon my ignorance but how exactly would you ram a tank and with what exactly if by ram you mean ramming literally?

Ram is what I like to say. Ram mean you use a tank to lead a column and charge into an ambush or IED hotspot.

Because Tank and IFV is hard to see out of, and you will easily get blown up by an IED in a tank if you march in a tank without infantry support, but if you do march your troop infront of your tank, then you will ended up losing both because it will blog down the tank from all the scanning and detecting metal. And it will give time your enemy to lay a well executed ambush. (Ambush and Time not usually go together)

 

[Lurch Adams]

The problem is, when a country is at war, it can, literally descent into that scenario. Iraq and Afghansitan is a representation of insurgency. It used to be, in the old day, a 4th generation warfare, which mean you will only face insurgency with a non-state actor, but the experience we had with ISIS told us the world have move on to 4GW+ where insurgency can be in a form of State Actor.

Now, this is not about what and where or when you fight, but about how you fight, no matter what kind of war situation you had, you will always had people try to ambush your convoy, and place IED on your MSR or ASR. the problem is even if you avoid using these routes, you cannot stop other people using it, and in this case, you will be responsible for other people, and you will need to clear them for these folks.

Large scale procurment may seems odd but when you are fighting an enemy which will resort to laying mine and IED over your support route, then these thing would come in handy, and if you don't have them in stock (Be it in large number) then you either don't resupply your troop, or you will be wasting a lot of resource just to resupply your troop.

Sorry I was not quite clear (or if you don't really understand what did I say) as I am a bit drunk right now...



Ram is what I like to say. Ram mean you use a tank to lead a column and charge into an ambush or IED hotspot.

Because Tank and IFV is hard to see out of, and you will easily get blown up by an IED in a tank if you march in a tank without infantry support, but if you do march your troop infront of your tank, then you will ended up losing both because it will blog down the tank from all the scanning and detecting metal. And it will give time your enemy to lay a well executed ambush. (Ambush and Time not usually go together)

Your response is well appreciated. As a war veteran you have much idea of the ground reality as opposed to armchair analysts like myself.

As you said, the nature of deployment has changed. It is for Pak army to decide what type of engagements they are expecting in the near future. If they feel that they need active deployment in KPK/FATA or Balochistan, then these purchases make obvious sense.

 

[jhungary]

Your response is well appreciated. As a war veteran you have much idea of the ground reality as opposed to armchair analysts like myself.

As you said, the nature of deployment has changed. It is for Pak army to decide what type of engagements they are expecting in the near future. If they feel that they need active deployment in KPK/FATA or Balochistan, then these purchases make obvious sense.

It come down to one sentense - Better safe then sorry. As we move from 4GW to 4GW+ the line is kind of blur together, and there are no guarantee that even a fair country will not come down to raising insurgency, if you don't have these equipment in stock, then when this does happen, you will be "sticking your thumb up your arse" in another word, be in shit........

 

[Basel]

Dong feng EQ2050 perhaps

It don't look like MRAP, no V shape hull design too.

 

[Zarvan]

Paramount MRAP

Ejder 4 X 4

Somebody please tell me what is so special about these USA MRAP which these MRAP I have posted about can't do. Or dollars are very special !!!!!!!!!!!!! We can get these MRAP with TOT. Still we keep running after USA for GOD sake How long we are going to keep running after them

 

[Aawish]

We could have easily got at least 200 MRAPS out of a total 762 MRAPs that USA used in Afghanistan and now giving for free to Egypt under Foreign Military Financing (FMF), if our foreign office would have played their cards right.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/10/01/united-states-delivers-egyptian-army-batch-mrap-vehicles/

 

[YeBeWarned]

@jhungary with respect to current events in Pakistan-Afghan border , do you think it will be a good Decision for Pakistan to send its ground troops within 20-30 KM inside Afghanistan to eliminate the threat or using Artillery will be a better solution ? and how can we use these MRAPS in this Operation ?

 

[denel]

Dong feng EQ2050 perhaps

This is a death trap; flat surface..... friend, read up on basic physics principals and v shape.

Paramount MRAP

Ejder 4 X 4

Somebody please tell me what is so special about these USA MRAP which these MRAP I have posted about can't do. Or dollars are very special !!!!!!!!!!!!! We can get these MRAP with TOT. Still we keep running after USA for GOD sake How long we are going to keep running after them

Paramount, Nyala, Mamba.... they are all same pedigree..... This is what you need. Man, i am disappointed to see rubbish from US makers while basic good solutions that can be achieved with unimog chassis. When we could do it in the 70' it is shocking to see that this conversation is being had 40 years later... Just call up my former employer or Paramount or buy the surplus Casspirs/buffels in thousands which are in storage.